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Kenya Airways...why ignore..
Swenani
#11181 Posted : Friday, November 02, 2018 3:00:19 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,236
Location: Vacuum
tandich wrote:
shadowinvestor wrote:
Mostly unseen in this dabate is the impact of Cargo. KQ in the 2007+ era went heavy in flying fruits and stuff to Dubai- Made a killing and half-
Focus on this route should include dedicated cargo plane/price cargo competitively.
Kenyan flowers arrive in Amsterdam to be resent to New York, there are clear savings hapo. Factor in the lower requirements for horticulture standards in USA than EU makes it a investors paradise.



As the route is structured, KQ can't make money on cargo. I recently talked to someone who works in an airline. Dreamliner carries 42t of payload. However on a long flight, they have to sacrifice that payload to carry enough fuel. The plane is limited to a certain design maximum take off weight. When you subtract the fuel required to fly for 15 hours from this, they can only take up 27t. KQ has a configuration of 0/30/204 on their Dreamliner. Assuming each pax + bags is 100kg, the fully sold plane (which they seem to be struggling with getting behinds on seats) can theoretically only carry 3.6t of revenue cargo. For perspective, about 9,000 mangos or about 600 boxes of flowers; not much. On shorter flights of 8-10 hours, they can carry everything.

The spare capacity (15t) is money left at the table and burnt on the altar of the prestige of non-stop flying. Not smart.

There are a few ways this route could make money:
* extremely expensive tickets (assuming they can find enough people to pay for the novelty)
* stopover to
- take up more passengers & cargo and/or
- refuel
* stop flying it to dedicate resources to more profitable undertakings
* code share with an American carrier with a hub at JFK to feed them passengers
* get a different aeroplane, that is not capacity-constrained, for the route. A350XWB or 777-200LR come to mind. {Ethiopian operates both types}

I understand this is quite an emotive subject. But there are some tough questions that have been glossed over by the management for the hype. Quite irresponsible for a company in negative equity position, with its principle shareholders hardly in a position to inject additional capital. Also, I would have thought KQLC would be more prudent in safeguarding their interest by perhaps employing aviation finance advisors.

Unrelated, the investment environment in Kenya is quite perilous. Especially when it comes to information. I have noticed journalists regurgitate press releases without critical enquiry. Auditor... Regulators... Additionally, investors, hardly take management to account (the AGM souvenir hunters take the cake). Seems like the only way to make money or safeguard your investments is to have people on the inside feeding you info. What is the solution?

Logic then dictates that if there are 45 pax(or fewer than the configured Number of pax), KQ should therefore carry more cargo. Moreover, cargo has more revenue than pax. I guess KQ would be happy to fly 45 pax but the cargo belly be full.

cargo to kenya
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
VituVingiSana
#11182 Posted : Friday, November 02, 2018 7:29:20 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,056
Location: Nairobi
@tandich - Thanks for the info.

Question: As much as KQ keeps the sales window open as long as possible...
If KQ knows it will only sell 100 seats [@100 kgs per seat] so there are 134 seat [@100kgs] = 12.4 tons available as cargo. Though I know it's tough to have perishable cargo on stand-by "hoping" for space.

The more I read, from contributors, about the direct non-stop flight, the less exciting it seems.
It seems a NBO-"West Africa"-NYC flight would have been a better bet by reducing 737 frequencies.
1) More cargo from NBO-"West Africa" [already being done]
2) NBO-West Africa pax [already being done]
3)West Africa-NYC pax
4) Less fuel used to carry additional fuel
5) Fewer cabin crew needed per flight since each leg is shorter.

Of course, the flights would also fly vice versa.
West Africa means a busy airport (eg ACC) that is CAT 1 compliant and can be fed for connecting pax.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#11183 Posted : Friday, November 02, 2018 7:30:59 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,056
Location: Nairobi
Swenani wrote:
tandich wrote:
shadowinvestor wrote:
Mostly unseen in this dabate is the impact of Cargo. KQ in the 2007+ era went heavy in flying fruits and stuff to Dubai- Made a killing and half-
Focus on this route should include dedicated cargo plane/price cargo competitively.
Kenyan flowers arrive in Amsterdam to be resent to New York, there are clear savings hapo. Factor in the lower requirements for horticulture standards in USA than EU makes it a investors paradise.



As the route is structured, KQ can't make money on cargo. I recently talked to someone who works in an airline. Dreamliner carries 42t of payload. However on a long flight, they have to sacrifice that payload to carry enough fuel. The plane is limited to a certain design maximum take off weight. When you subtract the fuel required to fly for 15 hours from this, they can only take up 27t. KQ has a configuration of 0/30/204 on their Dreamliner. Assuming each pax + bags is 100kg, the fully sold plane (which they seem to be struggling with getting behinds on seats) can theoretically only carry 3.6t of revenue cargo. For perspective, about 9,000 mangos or about 600 boxes of flowers; not much. On shorter flights of 8-10 hours, they can carry everything.

The spare capacity (15t) is money left at the table and burnt on the altar of the prestige of non-stop flying. Not smart.

There are a few ways this route could make money:
* extremely expensive tickets (assuming they can find enough people to pay for the novelty)
* stopover to
- take up more passengers & cargo and/or
- refuel
* stop flying it to dedicate resources to more profitable undertakings
* code share with an American carrier with a hub at JFK to feed them passengers
* get a different aeroplane, that is not capacity-constrained, for the route. A350XWB or 777-200LR come to mind. {Ethiopian operates both types}

I understand this is quite an emotive subject. But there are some tough questions that have been glossed over by the management for the hype. Quite irresponsible for a company in negative equity position, with its principle shareholders hardly in a position to inject additional capital. Also, I would have thought KQLC would be more prudent in safeguarding their interest by perhaps employing aviation finance advisors.

Unrelated, the investment environment in Kenya is quite perilous. Especially when it comes to information. I have noticed journalists regurgitate press releases without critical enquiry. Auditor... Regulators... Additionally, investors, hardly take management to account (the AGM souvenir hunters take the cake). Seems like the only way to make money or safeguard your investments is to have people on the inside feeding you info. What is the solution?

Logic then dictates that if there are 45 pax(or fewer than the configured Number of pax), KQ should therefore carry more pax. Moreover, cargo has more revenue than pax. I guess KQ would be happy to fly 45 pax but the cargo belly be full.

cargo to kenya
Doesn't KLM have a 747-Combi that flies to NBO and has the "rear" dedicated to cargo?
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#11184 Posted : Friday, November 02, 2018 7:43:34 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,056
Location: Nairobi
I have been saying this!
https://www.youtube.com/...MY&feature=youtu.be

Let "Old KQ" die and "New KQ" can inherit the BASAs, etc.
The "New KQ" can buy/inherit the good assets from "Old KQ" and not the liabilities (staff, debt, etc)...
Let new investors invest in "New KQ" which can then make sensible economic decisions.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Swenani
#11185 Posted : Friday, November 02, 2018 8:00:11 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,236
Location: Vacuum
VituVingiSana wrote:
@tandich - Thanks for the info.

Question: As much as KQ keeps the sales window open as long as possible...
If KQ knows it will only sell 100 seats [@100 kgs per seat] so there are 134 seat [@100kgs] = 12.4 tons available as cargo. Though I know it's tough to have perishable cargo on stand-by "hoping" for space.

The more I read, from contributors, about the direct non-stop flight, the less exciting it seems.
It seems a NBO-"West Africa"-NYC flight would have been a better bet by reducing 737 frequencies.
1) More cargo from NBO-"West Africa" [already being done]
2) NBO-West Africa pax [already being done]
3)West Africa-NYC pax
4) Less fuel used to carry additional fuel
5) Fewer cabin crew needed per flight since each leg is shorter.

Of course, the flights would also fly vice versa.
West Africa means a busy airport (eg ACC) that is CAT 1 compliant and can be fed for connecting pax.

Can @maka provide cargo stats for kq002&3 along with pax numbers.

In my thinking,cargo shouldn't be on standby but should be first come first served whether pax or cargo as long as they don't exceed payload
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
hardwood
#11186 Posted : Friday, November 02, 2018 11:10:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Tonight 80% capacity.
hardwood
#11187 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 2:36:12 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Nganya ziko chrome....zote from east, west, north and south.


obiero
#11188 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 8:27:05 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,475
Location: nairobi
Zichi wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
"We are like 45. So everyone has a row of seats to just bangaiza.
#KQNBONYC"

What's the capacity of biz class?
What's the capacity of cattle class?
What would the estimated breakeven load factor be?


Biz 30 economy 234

Premier 30 economy 204

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 15,750 ABP 6.45
obiero
#11189 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 8:34:33 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,475
Location: nairobi
muandiwambeu wrote:
tandich wrote:
shadowinvestor wrote:
Mostly unseen in this dabate is the impact of Cargo. KQ in the 2007+ era went heavy in flying fruits and stuff to Dubai- Made a killing and half-
Focus on this route should include dedicated cargo plane/price cargo competitively.
Kenyan flowers arrive in Amsterdam to be resent to New York, there are clear savings hapo. Factor in the lower requirements for horticulture standards in USA than EU makes it a investors paradise.



As the route is structured, KQ can't make money on cargo. I recently talked to someone who works in an airline. Dreamliner carries 42t of payload. However on a long flight, they have to sacrifice that payload to carry enough fuel. The plane is limited to a certain design maximum take off weight. When you subtract the fuel required to fly for 15 hours from this, they can only take up 27t. KQ has a configuration of 0/30/204 on their Dreamliner. Assuming each pax + bags is 100kg, the fully sold plane (which they seem to be struggling with getting behinds on seats) can theoretically only carry 3.6t of revenue cargo. For perspective, about 9,000 mangos or about 600 boxes of flowers; not much. On shorter flights of 8-10 hours, they can carry everything.

The spare capacity (15t) is money left at the table and burnt on the altar of the prestige of non-stop flying. Not smart.

There are a few ways this route could make money:
* extremely expensive tickets (assuming they can find enough people to pay for the novelty)
* stopover to
- take up more passengers & cargo and/or
- refuel
* stop flying it to dedicate resources to more profitable undertakings
* code share with an American carrier with a hub at JFK to feed them passengers
* get a different aeroplane, that is not capacity-constrained, for the route. A350XWB or 777-200LR come to mind. {Ethiopian operates both types}

I understand this is quite an emotive subject. But there are some tough questions that have been glossed over by the management for the hype. Quite irresponsible for a company in negative equity position, with its principle shareholders hardly in a position to inject additional capital. Also, I would have thought KQLC would be more prudent in safeguarding their interest by perhaps employing aviation finance advisors.

Unrelated, the investment environment in Kenya is quite perilous. Especially when it comes to information. I have noticed journalists regurgitate press releases without critical enquiry. Auditor... Regulators... Additionally, investors, hardly take management to account (the AGM souvenir hunters take the cake). Seems like the only way to make money or safeguard your investments is to have people on the inside feeding you info. What is the solution?

Thus not an optimal decision at all. Why not refuel bon air. Simply station three tankers at see and uplift fuel at the right moment. Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Kwani iko niny, I can station my refuel station in air so long as kq is willing to pay me cash. Ni hayo too.

You know, the CEO of KQ being an experienced aviation executive with turnaround experience probably knows more on the viability than most of us. The route is not dead as some people, some saboteurs want to make it seem

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 15,750 ABP 6.45
ZILLION
#11190 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 10:16:00 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/13/2008
Posts: 75
hardwood wrote:
Nganya ziko chrome....zote from east, west, north and south.




Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
I will frame this one for my grand children for evening stories.

The stories will revolve around Great turnarounds, S. Mikosz the airline turnaround genius V/S S.Jobs the Apple turnaround Genius,not forgetting M.Joseph who understood the Kenyan peculiar ways and transformed two Kenyan companies to Greatness.

End of the story will be the tens of thousands held in portfolio of both great companies.

obiero
#11191 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 12:33:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,475
Location: nairobi
ZILLION wrote:
hardwood wrote:
Nganya ziko chrome....zote from east, west, north and south.




Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
I will frame this one for my grand children for evening stories.

The stories will revolve around Great turnarounds, S. Mikosz the airline turnaround genius V/S S.Jobs the Apple turnaround Genius,not forgetting M.Joseph who understood the Kenyan peculiar ways and transformed two Kenyan companies to Greatness.

End of the story will be the tens of thousands held in portfolio of both great companies.


This turnaround for KQ will be unprecedented. Nothing can stop reggae and I am certain that I am not brighter than Mikosz or MJ in matters management so I chose to keep quiet and watch my portfolio grow

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 15,750 ABP 6.45
Kibe21
#11192 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 2:02:59 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 8/1/2018
Posts: 60
Location: Nairobi
obiero wrote:
ZILLION wrote:
hardwood wrote:
Nganya ziko chrome....zote from east, west, north and south.




Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
I will frame this one for my grand children for evening stories.

The stories will revolve around Great turnarounds, S. Mikosz the airline turnaround genius V/S S.Jobs the Apple turnaround Genius,not forgetting M.Joseph who understood the Kenyan peculiar ways and transformed two Kenyan companies to Greatness.

End of the story will be the tens of thousands held in portfolio of both great companies.


This turnaround for KQ will be unprecedented. Nothing can stop reggae and I am certain that I am not brighter than Mikosz or MJ in matters management so I chose to keep quiet and watch my portfolio grow


@Obiero, should we expect any substantial announcement on the KAA deal?
You had earlier predicted there would be an agreement by end of Nov 2018.
obiero
#11193 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 2:09:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,475
Location: nairobi
Kibe21 wrote:
obiero wrote:
ZILLION wrote:
hardwood wrote:
Nganya ziko chrome....zote from east, west, north and south.




Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
I will frame this one for my grand children for evening stories.

The stories will revolve around Great turnarounds, S. Mikosz the airline turnaround genius V/S S.Jobs the Apple turnaround Genius,not forgetting M.Joseph who understood the Kenyan peculiar ways and transformed two Kenyan companies to Greatness.

End of the story will be the tens of thousands held in portfolio of both great companies.


This turnaround for KQ will be unprecedented. Nothing can stop reggae and I am certain that I am not brighter than Mikosz or MJ in matters management so I chose to keep quiet and watch my portfolio grow


@Obiero, should we expect any substantial announcement on the KAA deal?
You had earlier predicted there would be an agreement by end of Nov 2018.

Remain very hopeful about the merger of KQ with KAA via JKIA concession. Its a done deal awaiting firming up of loose ends, especially with staff

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 15,750 ABP 6.45
sparkly
#11194 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 2:42:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
I have been saying this!
https://www.youtube.com/...MY&feature=youtu.be

Let "Old KQ" die and "New KQ" can inherit the BASAs, etc.
The "New KQ" can buy/inherit the good assets from "Old KQ" and not the liabilities (staff, debt, etc)...
Let new investors invest in "New KQ" which can then make sensible economic decisions.


Similar opinion. As it is, KQ with drag down KAA with it.
Life is short. Live passionately.
obiero
#11195 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 3:06:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,475
Location: nairobi
sparkly wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I have been saying this!
https://www.youtube.com/...MY&feature=youtu.be

Let "Old KQ" die and "New KQ" can inherit the BASAs, etc.
The "New KQ" can buy/inherit the good assets from "Old KQ" and not the liabilities (staff, debt, etc)...
Let new investors invest in "New KQ" which can then make sensible economic decisions.


Similar opinion. As it is, KQ with drag down KAA with it.

Your level of pessimism is unparalleled

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 15,750 ABP 6.45
sparkly
#11196 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 7:48:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
obiero wrote:
sparkly wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I have been saying this!
https://www.youtube.com/...MY&feature=youtu.be

Let "Old KQ" die and "New KQ" can inherit the BASAs, etc.
The "New KQ" can buy/inherit the good assets from "Old KQ" and not the liabilities (staff, debt, etc)...
Let new investors invest in "New KQ" which can then make sensible economic decisions.


Similar opinion. As it is, KQ with drag down KAA with it.

Your level of pessimism is unparalleled


Guilty as charged.

Dumped KQ three years ago. Since then, the stock has lost 70% of its value.
Life is short. Live passionately.
mlennyma
#11197 Posted : Saturday, November 03, 2018 8:08:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,175
Location: nairobi
sparkly wrote:
obiero wrote:
sparkly wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I have been saying this!
https://www.youtube.com/...MY&feature=youtu.be

Let "Old KQ" die and "New KQ" can inherit the BASAs, etc.
The "New KQ" can buy/inherit the good assets from "Old KQ" and not the liabilities (staff, debt, etc)...
Let new investors invest in "New KQ" which can then make sensible economic decisions.


Similar opinion. As it is, KQ with drag down KAA with it.

Your level of pessimism is unparalleled


Guilty as charged.

Dumped KQ three years ago. Since then, the stock has lost 70% of its value.

Kq is among 2019 stocks to watch according to analyst mlennyma
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
VituVingiSana
#11198 Posted : Sunday, November 04, 2018 12:09:18 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,056
Location: Nairobi
ZILLION wrote:
hardwood wrote:
Nganya ziko chrome....zote from east, west, north and south.




Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
I will frame this one for my grand children for evening stories.

The stories will revolve around Great turnarounds, S. Mikosz the airline turnaround genius V/S S.Jobs the Apple turnaround Genius,not forgetting M.Joseph who understood the Kenyan peculiar ways and transformed two Kenyan companies to Greatness.

End of the story will be the tens of thousands held in portfolio of both great companies.

KQ vs Apple? Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#11199 Posted : Sunday, November 04, 2018 12:15:45 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,056
Location: Nairobi
sparkly wrote:
obiero wrote:
sparkly wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I have been saying this!
https://www.youtube.com/...MY&feature=youtu.be

Let "Old KQ" die and "New KQ" can inherit the BASAs, etc.
The "New KQ" can buy/inherit the good assets from "Old KQ" and not the liabilities (staff, debt, etc)...
Let new investors invest in "New KQ" which can then make sensible economic decisions.


Similar opinion. As it is, KQ with drag down KAA with it.

Your level of pessimism is unparalleled


Guilty as charged.

Dumped KQ three years ago. Since then, the stock has lost 70% of its value.
Dumped KQ in 2012. Bought KK, ACCS, NIC, Unga, etc among other shares. Applause Applause Applause It's not that these purchases have done so well as much as KQ has cratered.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
obiero
#11200 Posted : Sunday, November 04, 2018 7:22:16 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 13,475
Location: nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
sparkly wrote:
obiero wrote:
sparkly wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I have been saying this!
https://www.youtube.com/...MY&feature=youtu.be

Let "Old KQ" die and "New KQ" can inherit the BASAs, etc.
The "New KQ" can buy/inherit the good assets from "Old KQ" and not the liabilities (staff, debt, etc)...
Let new investors invest in "New KQ" which can then make sensible economic decisions.


Similar opinion. As it is, KQ with drag down KAA with it.

Your level of pessimism is unparalleled


Guilty as charged.

Dumped KQ three years ago. Since then, the stock has lost 70% of its value.
Dumped KQ in 2012. Bought KK, ACCS, NIC, Unga, etc among other shares. Applause Applause Applause It's not that these purchases have done so well as much as KQ has cratered.

People really love to hate on KQ.. It’s like an obsession

HF 30,000 ABP 3.49; KQ 414,100 ABP 7.92; MTN 15,750 ABP 6.45
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