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I am voting No
faa
#1 Posted : Wednesday, May 12, 2010 2:55:10 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/8/2007
Posts: 709
I am voting No, not because of anything, but because of the Abortion Clause.

And i am sure, No will carry the Day
kadonye
#2 Posted : Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:43:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
faa wrote:
I am voting No, not because of anything, but because of the Abortion Clause.

And i am sure, No will carry the Day

Na hizo kura za 'LA' zitatoka wapi?Lakini piga kura kulingana na dhamiri yako
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
aemathenge
#3 Posted : Wednesday, May 12, 2010 6:48:43 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/18/2008
Posts: 3,434
Location: Kerugoya
You left out the best part of your post @Faa. What are you going to do if No does not carry the day?
Wendz
#4 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:01:13 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
@faa

The did you listen to a lawyer interpretation of that clause? I think its the most misunderstood clause of the whole constitution.

The constitution clearly says that abortion is illegal. any other laws can only rotate around that clause. The constitution also states very clearly that life begins at conception and everyone has a right to life and no one can termite a life arbitrarily so which other law can be made to allow abortion without contradicting all these clauses? the "any other laws" if you listened to a lawyer's interpretation refers to other laws that are existing including the penal code and the doctors Act and code of conduct.

@faa, it will be grave mistake to make a judgement based just on one issue of the whole of the constitution and i would like to request you one thing. Because you only have a problem with one issues only, why dont you talk to your lawyer friends and seek their opinion on that particular clause and how it relates to other laws? Am not saying you vote YES, all am saying, you will have done yourself and future generations a big favour for voting when informed than learning later that you would have done otherwise - my thots.
Cardinal
#5 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:06:13 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/12/2009
Posts: 266
Wendz wrote:
@faa

The did you listen to a lawyer interpretation of that clause? I think its the most misunderstood clause of the whole constitution.

The constitution clearly says that abortion is illegal. any other laws can only rotate around that clause. The constitution also states very clearly that life begins at conception and everyone has a right to life and no one can termite a life arbitrarily so which other law can be made to allow abortion without contradicting all these clauses? the "any other laws" if you listened to a lawyer's interpretation refers to other laws that are existing including the penal code and the doctors Act and code of conduct.

@faa, it will be grave mistake to make a judgement based just on one issue of the whole of the constitution and i would like to request you one thing. Because you only have a problem with one issues only, why dont you talk to your lawyer friends and seek their opinion on that particular clause and how it relates to other laws? Am not saying you vote YES, all am saying, you will have done yourself and future generations a big favour for voting when informed than learning later that you would have done otherwise - my thots.



@ Wendz.With all the due respect we accord you here madam.On this one you are gravely wrong.As someone said here the proposed draft constitution will fail.

Right to Life.” What started as a straightforward and noble protection of the right to life—a constitutional ban on abortion except where medically necessary to save a woman’s life—has been turned completely on its head. In the latest version rewritten by the “Committee of Experts” (CoE), the “right to life” has been slyly transformed into a constitutional right to abortion. Comparing the versions of earlier drafts shows what has happened. The original Harmonised Draft (November 2009) and the Revised Harmonised Draft (January 2010) submitted by the CoE to the Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC), both protected the “Right to Life.” Indeed, it is the first freedom listed in the Bill of Rights: “Every person has the right to life.” Under the Constitution of Kenya Review Act of 2008, the CoE was required to submit the draft to the Parliamentary Select Committee (PSC) for its “deliberation and consensus building on the contentious issues.” This occurred at January’s important meeting at Naivasha. The PSC enhanced and clarified the “Right to Life” by adding that “The life of a person begins at conception” and specifically prohibiting abortion except to save the mother’s life: “Abortion is not permitted unless in the opinion of a registered medical practitioner, the life of the mother is in danger.”This reflected a consensus that Kenya’s constitution should protect life and prohibit abortion. At this point, the Constitution of Kenya Review Act of 2008 directed the CoE to “revise the draft Constitution taking into account the achieved consensus” and submit the draft to the PSC, which would then lay it before Parliament. The CoE did not do this. It did not revise the draft to reflect “the achieved consensus” at Naivasha. On the contrary, the CoE hijacked the “Right to Life” entirely, turning it instead into a right to abortion. Article 26(4) now provides: “Abortion is not permitted unless, in the opinion of a trained health professional, there is a need for emergency treatment, or the life or health of the mother is in danger, or if permitted by any other written law.”This provision completely negates the right to life in four ways. First, it changes the decision-maker from a “registered medical practitioner” to any “trained health professional.” Thus, it need not be a doctor or nurse who makes the medical judgment that an abortion is necessary; it can be any professional “trained” in “health,” whether certified or not. This is code language for permitting abortionists to decide whether an abortion should be permitted. Second, the PSC consensus at Naivasha only permitted abortion when “the life of the mother is in danger.” The CoE re-wrote this to permit abortion when “the life or health” of the mother is in danger. What does “health” include? How broad is this exception? Unfortunately, America provides a bad example. The phrase “health of the mother” is a term-of-art in American constitutional law concerning abortion. It means that the mother may choose abortion for any physical, emotional, psychological, social, financial, or “family” reason she chooses. The effect, in America, is to permit abortion for any reason, throughout all nine months of pregnancy, as a matter of constitutional right. This language is not in the U.S. Constitution, but comes from the U.S. Supreme Court’s infamous decision in the case of Roe v. Wade, which created an unlimited right to abortion in America by using a trick definition of “health” in a companion decision, Doe v. Bolton. But the “health of the mother” language is in the proposed Constitution of Kenya. It is therefore very likely that this language may be interpreted by courts and government officials in Kenya as creating a right to abortion for any reason throughout pregnancy, after the fashion of America. Third, the CoE’s new version explicitly provides that abortion may be made legal if “permitted by any other written law.” In other words, the constitutional right to life may be entirely nullified, simply by passing a new law, without changing the constitution. This means that the right to life is really no constitutional right at all. Fourth, the exception for “emergency treatment” means something more than protecting the life or health of the mother. Otherwise, this language would have no effect. The CoE added this language. To what does “emergency treatment” refer, if not protecting life or health? A likely answer is that “emergency treatment” is code language for “emergency contraception” that works by producing an early abortion after conception has occurred. There is one more provision of the current draft that further reinforces the right to abortion. Under Article 43 of the CoE’s latest version, “every person” has the constitutional right to “health care services, including reproductive health care.” In America, the phrase “reproductive health care” is polite language for abortion. In America, one of the debates over health care is whether abortion is truly “health care.” “Reproductive health care” is the code term that is used when abortion is what is meant. Because Article 43 of the current draft appears to provide an affirmative right to “reproductive health” services, this language probably provides a social-welfare entitlement to publicly-provided or publicly-funded abortions. In short, the current draft provides a constitutional right to abortion, for any reason, throughout all nine months of pregnancy, paid for by all Kenyans. These are dramatic changes from the earlier versions of the proposed constitution. Nothing like this was in any of the earlier drafts. Article 26 is a completely new invention. It completely undermines the right to life. Indeed, it produces its opposite. It creates a right to abortion.





Sigiriri
#6 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:22:19 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/26/2008
Posts: 319
Applause @cardinalApplause - well done - I like that you are making clear reference to actual wording of the draft. Your piece has educated me greatly and reinforced my 'NO' position.

Dishonesty is the motivation behind the CoE's refusal to recognise these issues. Arrogance is another thing about these guys - they feel above reproach and the end result - we will mess up if we say yes to this katiba(which wacko has adulterated again - kama kawaida)

yes team, cross over...
nanfor1
#7 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:35:13 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
@Wendz, stop bothering with the no fellows who are only interested in abortion. It does not matter how it was worded or what lawyers they see. The only satisfaction they will get is if the clause said.

"abortion is illegal and anyone found doing it will be taken to hell in a kenya police van while the rest of us go to heaven"

They will not read it, they will be told by their pastor what it means. They are wrong and are deliberatly misleading Kenyans on this clause for other reasons. I still say its land. The land that the catholic church and the evangelicals have been illegally acquiring over the years.

That is why I think even Ruto is more honest.

Abortion is illegal in Kenya right now. Abortion is illegal in the proposed. Even if they go praying and kesharing, it is illegal.

Even Galileo had to attone 1000 times that the world was flat. It never changed the fact that it is not so.
Hata wakizima taa
nostoppingthis
#8 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:49:24 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 5,909
Location: Nairobi
@ Cardinal Applause Applause Applause but where is Muganda on this one. Would anyone care to elaborate extensively on the issue of the Kadhi courts here, since we have people going around with the notion that, "Bado Kadhi courts ziko kwa current constitution" not imagining that it is probably worse in the proposed one...and does that mean, if they are in the current constitution, they were right in the first place?
masukuma
#9 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:12:39 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
nanfor1 wrote:
The only satisfaction they will get is if the clause said.

"abortion is illegal and anyone found doing it will be taken to hell in a kenya police van while the rest of us go to heaven"

They will not read it , they will be told by their pastor what it means. They are wrong and are deliberatly misleading Kenyans on this clause for other reasons. I still say its land. The land that the catholic church and the evangelicals have been illegally acquiring over the years.

yet again she cooks up stuff that has never been said - does she have clairvoyance running or what?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
truth
#10 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:20:28 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/5/2010
Posts: 21
i was thinking yes but know the more i read the constitution im thinking of joining the no camp as much as i was opposed to them.do not listen to rumors just read the constitution.
sky5
#11 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:28:33 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/7/2010
Posts: 282
Location: Nairobi
I am voting NO.

The draft constitution is not good for Kenyans. It is good for most politicians, socialists and civil society activists. The politicians had consesus at Naivasha and the activists through the CoE.

Politicians are after power and money and care less about all the contents. They cared less when Kenyans butchered one another during PEV and don't care whether there are Kenyans in IDP camps.

Activists work on instructions and directions from their overseas paymasters and won't go at great lengths to have their agenda in the constitution.

The constitution is for Kenyans and by Kenyans. In it's current form, it is not good and should the 'Yes' vote pass, people will celebrate but a few years down the line, there will be a loud cry to amend it. But since most articles/clauses are protected, it will be next to impossible to amend them.(especially knowing the gullibility of our politicians who will be in the county and national assemblies). At that time Kenyans will regret why they never listened to the church.




nanfor1
#12 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:48:16 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
sky

going by the number of condoms and beers sold in Kenya, I doubt if anyone listens to the "church".

the church where Kenyans were burnt in still has issues with one bishop saying this and another saying that.

Please don't try to remind us that the church was used for political purposes the last time and your clergy actively supported one group over another depending on their tribe.

I keep on asking, all this things that you hate so much were done under THE CURRENT constitution. You seem very depressed about the state of Kenya as it is. yet all these things are happening under what you have now.

So now, you will vote no to continue with the things that you hate the most.
Hata wakizima taa
nanfor1
#13 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:51:12 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
sky

going by the number of condoms and beers sold in Kenya, I doubt if anyone listens to the "church".

the church where Kenyans were burnt in still has issues with one bishop saying this and another saying that.

Please don't try to remind us that the church was used for political purposes the last time and your clergy actively supported one group over another depending on their tribe.

I keep on asking, all this things that you hate so much were done under THE CURRENT constitution. You seem very depressed about the state of Kenya as it is. yet all these things are happening under what you have now.

So now, you will vote no to continue with the things that you hate the most.
Hata wakizima taa
Wendz
#14 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:52:19 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
@Cardin

Why am i reading too much assumptions in that post? the 'code' words mean all the negative aspects..... why cant they be used on a positive light... for example, the issue you have brought in on 'reproductive health care?' Does it mean women have no problems with reproduction and need no health care in reproductive issues except abortion?

Which part of my post was wrong by the way? that other laws do not stem from the constitution? That right to life is not in penal code or that other laws does not mean part of the laws in the penal code? Or that the lawyer did not state what i wrote? I think what i may have missed out was the fact that there are other laws that may be formed and except for speculation, whether these laws will legalise abortion or not is yet to be known but i believe, if we are able to elect lawmakers with a moral standing, then abortion will never be legalised. well, it is true that law can be manipulated however well crafted a statement is.

@Sky5

You clearly havent read the constitution. In my wanjiku opinion, its the closest we can get to a kenyan constitution for kenyans - of course except for the two matata issues which am willing to have rectified AFTER the proposed one goes through...
Mpenzi
#15 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:53:32 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
@Cardinal
While it is all good to put forward a succinctly argued presentation on the issue of abortion, it is intellectually dishonest not to quote the source. What you have posted appears elsewhere as written by a professor currently teaching at Daystar University.
famooz
#16 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 7:57:27 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,046
heheheh @ cardinal,plagiarism!!! i was about to say you have chambuad this abortion clause vilivyo!

Seeders
#17 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:04:10 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 234
Location: Nairobi
supernanny to the rescue. i need to meet this woman.

nanfor1 wrote:
@Wendz, stop bothering with the no fellows who are only interested in abortion. It does not matter how it was worded or what lawyers they see. The only satisfaction they will get is if the clause said.

"abortion is illegal and anyone found doing it will be taken to hell in a kenya police van while the rest of us go to heaven"

They will not read it, they will be told by their pastor what it means. They are wrong and are deliberatly misleading Kenyans on this clause for other reasons. I still say its land. The land that the catholic church and the evangelicals have been illegally acquiring over the years.

That is why I think even Ruto is more honest.

Abortion is illegal in Kenya right now. Abortion is illegal in the proposed. Even if they go praying and kesharing, it is illegal.

Even Galileo had to attone 1000 times that the world was flat. It never changed the fact that it is not so.

famooz
#18 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:04:24 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,046
Could someone please help me understand,in simple terms,the main radical changes that the proposed constitution will bring to the table? Does it mark a complete departure from the old way of doing things to a new dawn? If not,then this is just hot air.
2012
#19 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:16:59 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
faa wrote:
I am voting No, not because of anything, but because of the Abortion Clause.

And i am sure, No will carry the Day


And that @faa is your right. If we were all going to vote YES there won't be need to conduct an expensive referendum; would there?

BBI will solve it
:)
sky5
#20 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:18:41 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/7/2010
Posts: 282
Location: Nairobi
@nanfor1, to hear is one thing, to listen is another thing and to understand is a different thing. The fact that people don't obey the law is no excuse to allow the contrary.

People did not fight during the Pev (or in 1992,1997,2002) because of the current constitution. Why didn't we fight before then since we still had the same constitution? With good leadership, the current constitution and laws can still serve us good. But the law is not meant for good people but for law-breakers. And whichever law you put in place, lawbreakers will find a way to break it...and with impunity.Why do you think Ocampo was in town? Don't we have a law and constitution? Why couldn't we apply the law on the same cases he is pursuing? A new and contentious constitution is not the solution.

@wendy, i have read the draft both in soft copy and hard copy. I also have current constitution for comparison. I am not an expert in constitutional law but even the experts can't agree. Ambiguity in the draft is open to many different interpretations (even lawyers do not agree on the interpretations). On the surface the draft looks good, but at the core of most of the the issues, there is every reason to worry. It better to reject it now than to regret later; "I wish I knew".
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