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M7 Social Media TAX -Excellent
Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:Another analogy.
Assuming I order a product from Amazon. The product is shipped via dhl, received at the port of entry, processed and I pay 3 persons in this transaction, Amazon for the product, GoK as duty on the product ( because I am the importer) and I pay DHL as the transporter.
The issue with social media is defining the product and defining the importer. Let's call social medias product ' product x'. I pay for product x with my data. Without agreeing to have my data collected, I cannot access social media.
In defining the importer, let's ask simple questions.
Does FB appear the same to all nationalities? Does FB to the Russian, British and Indian bear the same language, thought process and cultural sensitivities? Does FB hire personnel with a mind to target certain regions of the world, to adapt it's offering to the peculiarities of that region? If indeed the answer is Yes, can you then claim that all individuals who log in to FB are teleported to purchase the product x from one server in the US. What kind of product x is this that is based in one place yet caters to different cultures and is simultaneously in different languages?
I put it to you that FB is the importer of product x into various economies. FB can decide to not have product x available in a certain jurisdiction. So in the case of FB, FB has made ( by default) their product available to me in Kenya. The ISP is the transporter and I purchase from FB with my personal data. As such, FB should pay duty to the government. Does Amazon pay GOK taxes because you saw a book and bought it? Don't you pay taxes in US then ship the item? What about if you bought an e-book? Movie? Any taxes paid to Gok? Shipping costs for the movie or ebook? FB has volunteer translators. Users of the site. Apart from that, there are so many Russian Indian Swahili speakers in US Oh my, I give up. You obviously don't take time to read and understand an analogy. So bent on pushing your ideas while going off tangent to the issue at hand. For example, how does volunteers in FB affect anything. Whether you volunteer or not, you are still working at FB. It's OK. I rest my case. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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tom_boy wrote:murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:Another analogy.
Assuming I order a product from Amazon. The product is shipped via dhl, received at the port of entry, processed and I pay 3 persons in this transaction, Amazon for the product, GoK as duty on the product ( because I am the importer) and I pay DHL as the transporter.
The issue with social media is defining the product and defining the importer. Let's call social medias product ' product x'. I pay for product x with my data. Without agreeing to have my data collected, I cannot access social media.
In defining the importer, let's ask simple questions.
Does FB appear the same to all nationalities? Does FB to the Russian, British and Indian bear the same language, thought process and cultural sensitivities? Does FB hire personnel with a mind to target certain regions of the world, to adapt it's offering to the peculiarities of that region? If indeed the answer is Yes, can you then claim that all individuals who log in to FB are teleported to purchase the product x from one server in the US. What kind of product x is this that is based in one place yet caters to different cultures and is simultaneously in different languages?
I put it to you that FB is the importer of product x into various economies. FB can decide to not have product x available in a certain jurisdiction. So in the case of FB, FB has made ( by default) their product available to me in Kenya. The ISP is the transporter and I purchase from FB with my personal data. As such, FB should pay duty to the government. Does Amazon pay GOK taxes because you saw a book and bought it? Don't you pay taxes in US then ship the item? What about if you bought an e-book? Movie? Any taxes paid to Gok? Shipping costs for the movie or ebook? FB has volunteer translators. Users of the site. Apart from that, there are so many Russian Indian Swahili speakers in US Oh my, I give up. You obviously don't take time to read and understand an analogy. So bent on pushing your ideas while going off tangent to the issue at hand. For example, how does volunteers in FB affect anything. Whether you volunteer or not, you are still working at FB. It's OK. I rest my case. You just don't gerrit. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/9/2009 Posts: 6,592 Location: Nairobi
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I listened to Kizza Besigye on live radio today morning. Apparently, he's in Kenya for a book launch. What surprised me is that he doesn't sound like he holds a grudge or bitterness despite his heavy criticism of M7 and other African governments. He sounds very progressive.
BBI will solve it :)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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tom_boy wrote:Another analogy.
Assuming I order a product from Amazon. The product is shipped via dhl, received at the port of entry, processed and I pay 3 persons in this transaction, Amazon for the product, GoK as duty on the product ( because I am the importer) and I pay DHL as the transporter.
The issue with social media is defining the product and defining the importer. Let's call social medias product ' product x'. I pay for product x with my data. Without agreeing to have my data collected, I cannot access social media.
In defining the importer, let's ask simple questions.
Does FB appear the same to all nationalities? Does FB to the Russian, British and Indian bear the same language, thought process and cultural sensitivities? Does FB hire personnel with a mind to target certain regions of the world, to adapt it's offering to the peculiarities of that region? If indeed the answer is Yes, can you then claim that all individuals who log in to FB are teleported to purchase the product x from one server in the US. What kind of product x is this that is based in one place yet caters to different cultures and is simultaneously in different languages?
I put it to you that FB is the importer of product x into various economies. FB can decide to not have product x available in a certain jurisdiction. So in the case of FB, FB has made ( by default) their product available to me in Kenya. The ISP is the transporter and I purchase from FB with my personal data. As such, FB should pay duty to the government. SMH, @Tomboy, you have made up your mind and nothing anyone says will convince you otherwise. In your analogy above, Amazon does not pay any taxes to GOK for selling the books to a Kenyan, yet you want FB to pay taxes to GOK for selling access to Kenyans. You need to be consistent bruh. For your comfort, google has an office in Kenya where they gather local content, the revenue declared by their Kenyan company is subject to taxation here, their employees in Kenya also pay PAYE and all other applicable taxes. When/If FB deem Kenya to be a big enough market to set up shop, then they will pay taxes as applicable on their Kenyan operations. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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murchr wrote:tycho wrote:I don't think even facebook is in America. It's in a virtual space that can only be determined by where the user is.
If we were to say it's in America because that's where the servers are then we'd be wrong. There are servers in Ireland, Sweden, US, Singapore...
And if it's about incorporation then the matter becomes murkier... And Facebook pays taxes in all these countries Great. So if I log in, I may be served by all these servers across the world. If that's the case then facebook is in none of these countries but in some abstract space. I believe that it's what happens in this abstract space that all the money is made, and where most of inequality will increase. This source of inequality needs to be cut. We need to have a way of making users to earn, by virtue of usage, from such social utilities like facebook. You did well to mention 'block chain' and cryptocurrencies, because these may be used to distribute the gains of 'usage' - actually 'Prosumption', a term coined in the eighties. Then if the government wishes to tax the end user, it can find a wider tax base. And all are happy.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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Mjadala kali kweli kweli. Totally lit with so many blown fuses courtesy of this old timer Tom-Boy. Mbona watu nanuna namna hii? Tom-Boy hujambo...... Kwa maoni yangu mimi binafsi, sth gotta give, somewhere, sometime in the future. FB indeed makes money from the millions (or is it billions) of followers outside the US, voluntary service or not notwithstanding. It does not just make money from the American Citizens alone. I believe we do pay, probably indirectly, one way or another via the adverts......Iko kakitu hapa bado hatujamulika vizuri. It is only a matter of time before tuanze kutwangwa na ka-tax ama ka-fee fulani. Genomen, I come in peace, sina noma, dont blow fuses. TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:tom_boy wrote:Another analogy.
Assuming I order a product from Amazon. The product is shipped via dhl, received at the port of entry, processed and I pay 3 persons in this transaction, Amazon for the product, GoK as duty on the product ( because I am the importer) and I pay DHL as the transporter.
The issue with social media is defining the product and defining the importer. Let's call social medias product ' product x'. I pay for product x with my data. Without agreeing to have my data collected, I cannot access social media.
In defining the importer, let's ask simple questions.
Does FB appear the same to all nationalities? Does FB to the Russian, British and Indian bear the same language, thought process and cultural sensitivities? Does FB hire personnel with a mind to target certain regions of the world, to adapt it's offering to the peculiarities of that region? If indeed the answer is Yes, can you then claim that all individuals who log in to FB are teleported to purchase the product x from one server in the US. What kind of product x is this that is based in one place yet caters to different cultures and is simultaneously in different languages?
I put it to you that FB is the importer of product x into various economies. FB can decide to not have product x available in a certain jurisdiction. So in the case of FB, FB has made ( by default) their product available to me in Kenya. The ISP is the transporter and I purchase from FB with my personal data. As such, FB should pay duty to the government. SMH, @Tomboy, you have made up your mind and nothing anyone says will convince you otherwise. In your analogy above, Amazon does not pay any taxes to GOK for selling the books to a Kenyan, yet you want FB to pay taxes to GOK for selling access to Kenyans. You need to be consistent bruh. Please try follow the analogy especially as a pertains to the importer.
In amazon's case, amazon does not import. In FB's case, my argument is that FB plays the greatest part in making their product available to me, to the extent of hiring people to customise my experience.In this way FB acts almost like an 'importer'by bringing their product as close to me psychologically, emotionally, culturally as possible. They go to great lengths to ensure that customers in different regions access their product. Is that not what an importer/exporter does.? For your comfort, google has an office in Kenya where they gather local content, the revenue declared by their Kenyan company is subject to taxation here, their employees in Kenya also pay PAYE and all other applicable taxes. When/If FB deem Kenya to be a big enough market to set up shop, then they will pay taxes as applicable on their Kenyan operations. The debate is not about market size. Even hawkers pay tax. It's about equity.
Also, an FB office in Kenya may not translate to taxes paid by FB . Being a tech company one cannot prove that the income was made in Kenya. For sure the technology will not be Kenya. An office may as well just be a research lab. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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simonkabz wrote:Mjadala kali kweli kweli. Totally lit with so many blown fuses courtesy of this old timer Tom-Boy. Mbona watu nanuna namna hii?
Tom-Boy hujambo......
Kwa maoni yangu mimi binafsi, sth gotta give, somewhere, sometime in the future.
FB indeed makes money from the millions (or is it billions) of followers outside the US, voluntary service or not notwithstanding. It does not just make money from the American Citizens alone. I believe we do pay, probably indirectly, one way or another via the adverts......Iko kakitu hapa bado hatujamulika vizuri. It is only a matter of time before tuanze kutwangwa na ka-tax ama ka-fee fulani.
Genomen, I come in peace, sina noma, dont blow fuses. Hapo sawa bro They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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wee @TomBoy Facebook like Turtle Bay Resort is AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. Facebook like Turtle Bay has hired italian translators to ensure your stay there is comfortable and ACCESSIBLE but not to export to your Turtle Bay to italy - that does not make sense. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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simonkabz wrote:Mjadala kali kweli kweli. Totally lit with so many blown fuses courtesy of this old timer Tom-Boy. Mbona watu nanuna namna hii?
Tom-Boy hujambo......
Kwa maoni yangu mimi binafsi, sth gotta give, somewhere, sometime in the future.
FB indeed makes money from the millions (or is it billions) of followers outside the US, voluntary service or not notwithstanding. It does not just make money from the American Citizens alone. I believe we do pay, probably indirectly, one way or another via the adverts......Iko kakitu hapa bado hatujamulika vizuri. It is only a matter of time before tuanze kutwangwa na ka-tax ama ka-fee fulani.
Genomen, I come in peace, sina noma, dont blow fuses. The only thing that's gonna give is if you build your own, or if FB sees a reason to establish here. But right now you are just users accessing their website which happens to interact with you. You do not buy anything from Facebook, FB just connects you to a seller, you just happen to like being there because for one reason or another it fulfills your purpose. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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masukuma wrote:wee @TomBoy Facebook like Turtle Bay Resort is AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. Facebook like Turtle Bay has hired italian translators to ensure your stay there is comfortable and ACCESSIBLE but not to export to your Turtle Bay to italy - that does not make sense. Naona sasa umenielewa, ni vile to hatukubaliani They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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tom_boy wrote:masukuma wrote:wee @TomBoy Facebook like Turtle Bay Resort is AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE. Facebook like Turtle Bay has hired italian translators to ensure your stay there is comfortable and ACCESSIBLE but not to export to your Turtle Bay to italy - that does not make sense. Naona sasa umenielewa, ni vile to hatukubaliani Yes... hatukubaliani that Turtle Bay should pay a tax to the Italian state because Italians come here and they have tried as much as possible to make them comfortable while they are here. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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https://www.google.com/a...45772-isar0wz/index.htmlThey must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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https://www.google.com/a...90518-xj3bte/index.html
Habari ndio hiyo . I am not crazy as some guys are want to think. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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tom_boy wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessdailyafrica.com/analysis/Taxing-eservice-firms-based-outside-Kenya/539548-3345772-view-asAMP-yj6y1mz/index.html#ampshare=https://www.businessdailyafrica.com/analysis/Taxing-eservice-firms-based-outside-Kenya/539548-3345772-isar0wz/index.html This is what happens when you make foolish laws. Quote:In this day and age of the Internet, data, smart phones and apps, this move was timely and when it was enacted it was anticipated that it would bring more people into the VAT net.
However since the law provides that the foreign supplier and his local VAT representative will be jointly and severally liable for any tax liabilities of the foreign supplier, local persons have been understandably reluctant to assume the VAT representative role.
The other challenge has been the unintended consequences that could stem from VAT registration.
If we set the challenges of finding a willing local VAT representative aside, there is the dark cloud of triggering a permanent establishment and the ensuing income tax consequences that hang over the whole thing.
Even though VAT on e-services was never meant to result in the creation of a tax presence in Kenya for income tax purposes, there is the real possibility that the tax authorities could infer the creation of a tax presence in Kenya through the VAT representative.
Inferring a tax presence means that the foreign supplier would be required to pay Kenyan income tax on the e-services sales reported for VAT purposes by the VAT representative.
It is this income tax uncertainty that foreign suppliers are particularly uncomfortable with.
The situation is further exacerbated by the fact that registering for a PIN, which is used for income tax purposes, is a prerequisite for VAT registration. Good luck "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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tom_boy wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/Commentary/Levy-new-social-media-tax-Facebook-not-users/689364-4390518-view-asAMP-597c07/index.html#ampshare=http://www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/Commentary/Levy-new-social-media-tax-Facebook-not-users/689364-4390518-xj3bte/index.html
Habari ndio hiyo . I am not crazy as some guys are want to think. Other governments around the world which are open to a more progressive outlook to these things, are pushing to rewrite their tax rules to capture tax from technology companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc, which may have no representative offices, or other physical presence in a country, but are accruing profits through large numbers of online users. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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tom_boy wrote:tom_boy wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/Commentary/Levy-new-social-media-tax-Facebook-not-users/689364-4390518-view-asAMP-597c07/index.html#ampshare=http://www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/Commentary/Levy-new-social-media-tax-Facebook-not-users/689364-4390518-xj3bte/index.html
Habari ndio hiyo . I am not crazy as some guys are want to think. Other governments around the world which are open to a more progressive outlook to these things, are pushing to rewrite their tax rules to capture tax from technology companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc, which may have no representative offices, or other physical presence in a country, but are accruing profits through large numbers of online users. Which govts are these? "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:tom_boy wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/Commentary/Levy-new-social-media-tax-Facebook-not-users/689364-4390518-view-asAMP-597c07/index.html#ampshare=http://www.monitor.co.ug/OpEd/Commentary/Levy-new-social-media-tax-Facebook-not-users/689364-4390518-xj3bte/index.html
Habari ndio hiyo . I am not crazy as some guys are want to think. Other governments around the world which are open to a more progressive outlook to these things, are pushing to rewrite their tax rules to capture tax from technology companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc, which may have no representative offices, or other physical presence in a country, but are accruing profits through large numbers of online users. Which govts are these? Australia, India. India has a google tax since 2016, an indirect way of making social media pay tax. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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https://www.google.com/a...7-11e8-b27e-cc62a39d57a0They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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tom_boy wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/e38b60ce-27d7-11e8-b27e-cc62a39d57a0#ampshare=https://www.ft.com/content/e38b60ce-27d7-11e8-b27e-cc62a39d57a0 According to draft proposals seen by the Financial Times, the European Commission will unveil a three-pronged digital tax next week that targets revenues rather than profits, heeding calls in France, Germany and Britain for a tougher approach to tax avoidance by tech companies. The levy, which is likely to be set at a rate of 3 per cent, will be raised against advertising revenues generated by digital companies such as Google, the fees raised from users and subscribers to services such as Apple or Spotify, and the income made from selling personal data to third parties. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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