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M7 Social Media TAX -Excellent
Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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masukuma wrote:the fellow actually believes individuals belong to the state. not only the state... Government... what an interesting line of fiction. Govt is everything. Many hate to hear this or believe it but Govt influence is everywhere. Govt decides what you can and cannot do. Govt owns you in a sense. Yes you have free will to act but can only do so within govt framework provided. Anyway, no point debating this. Govt is always seeking greater control over individuals. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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Ngalaka wrote:Too much back and forth here....
Simple points if you ask me.
As the structure of things in the global arena stand now, it is not practically possible for Kenya/UG to tax the likes of facebook, whatsapp etc.
It is also practically unviable/unrealistic and unachievable to filter the users of internet so as to target & only tax the segment that is using social media.
Hence if Kenya/Ug insists on taxing they would have to lump all internet users together for the tax, which beats the original intention as sold - unless it is a gimmick.
However, IF, and that a ‘YUGE’ if, it were possible to successfully target the users of social media specifically and slap a tax on them without encroaching on other internet users I would be kosher with it. It’s a luxury that at times borders on social evil.
Lets be sincere - Govts thrive on tax and since it is a generally accepted norm that essentials of life shouldn’t be put too high for the average Joe especially by taxing them - got to go slow on those. As a matter of fact in critical times, access to certain basic foodstuff can even be subsidized by Govt.
Wherefore;
I would in fact say tax 10% on social media usage and 30% on porn access.
But for now that’s only a pipe dream – like Horses and beggars.
What is social media? Who gets taxed in the service industry? "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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murchr wrote:
What is social media? Who gets taxed in the service industry?
Rhetorical! Well you get taxed for buying airtime, plane ticket, dinning at Serena etc. Heck even Serena imposes a tax of their own on you - they call it service charge - I hear it's meant for tipping the waiters & co! Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Hapo kwa pornography @Ngalaka amekosea kidogo. If social media ni 10% then pornography should be at least 4% max 7%...
Only as far as proportions are concerned. Otherwise I don't support most of his argument.
But hapo kwa percentages amenikwaza zaidi!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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tycho wrote:Hapo kwa pornography @Ngalaka amekosea kidogo. If social media ni 10% then pornography should be at least 4% max 7%...
Only as far as proportions are concerned. Otherwise I don't support most of his argument.
But hapo kwa percentages amenikwaza zaidi!  Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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Ngalaka wrote:murchr wrote:
What is social media? Who gets taxed in the service industry?
Rhetorical! Well you get taxed for buying airtime, plane ticket, dinning at Serena etc. Heck even Serena imposes a tax of their own on you - they call it service charge - I hear it's meant for tipping the waiters & co! If you tax FB because you feel its a luxury (may be to you) would you not be severely infringing into the rights of the normal wanjiku who uses the platform to showcase what she does (sew mats, do hair, wash cars, cook) yet Wanjiku still pays taxes on these services she offers? I think our leaders have become lazy or are completely incompetent in raising money. The economy thrives in an environment where taxes are low. Keeping the taxes low attracts businesses bringing jobs which will increase PAYE. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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murchr wrote:
If you tax FB because you feel its a luxury (may be to you) would you not be severely infringing into the rights of the normal wanjiku who uses the platform to showcase what she does (sew mats, do hair, wash cars, cook) yet Wanjiku still pays taxes on these services she offers?
I think our leaders have become lazy or are completely incompetent in raising money. The economy thrives in an environment where taxes are low. Keeping the taxes low attracts businesses bringing jobs which will increase PAYE.
I see your point. However, the same argument can be made about - beer, Cigarettes, Casino business etc. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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Ngalaka wrote:murchr wrote:
If you tax FB because you feel its a luxury (may be to you) would you not be severely infringing into the rights of the normal wanjiku who uses the platform to showcase what she does (sew mats, do hair, wash cars, cook) yet Wanjiku still pays taxes on these services she offers?
I think our leaders have become lazy or are completely incompetent in raising money. The economy thrives in an environment where taxes are low. Keeping the taxes low attracts businesses bringing jobs which will increase PAYE.
I see your point. However, the same argument can be made about - beer, Cigarettes, Casino business etc. How now? Beer Cigarettes are a luxury. That person showing us that they can make mats is not using that notice board as a luxury. There's a new breed of money makers who have been born by "social media". "Marketing influencers" Kyle Jenner is to become the youngest billionaire at 21 out of the influence she has on social media.  When Snapchat upgraded their software, she made a comment that "its dead" and the SNAP stock lost $1.3B in a day's trading. Well...its debatable if the tweet really made that to happen but yes it happened. Marketers have now realized the power of product endorsements by "celebrities" is bigger than traditional ads and many are taking advantage of this new found wealth creation strategy. I think in East Africa no one does it better than Idris Sultan, with over 2M followers local and international brands all want him to endorse their products. In Kenya, Caroline Mutoko comes in mind and several other female "celebrities" that Nyakundi feels are a threat to the male species. They are not close to what Idris is but they are growing. The world is changing, the legislature not so much "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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murchr wrote:
How now? Beer Cigarettes are a luxury. That person showing us that they can make mats is not using that notice board as a luxury.
Let's not get bogged down with that. The bigger picture - social media(FB)is more of a luxury than anything else. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Ngalaka wrote:murchr wrote:
How now? Beer Cigarettes are a luxury. That person showing us that they can make mats is not using that notice board as a luxury.
Let's not get bogged down with that. The bigger picture - social media(FB)is more of a luxury than anything else. No. FB is a social utility many people don't know how to use. Most have gone for the most superficial stuff. But it is much more richer in potential than what we see commonly. And it's not Zuckerberg's problem. The problem is your lack of imagination and skill.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 4/13/2017 Posts: 12
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Interesting debate!
Taxing FB would definitely be a toll order. However, could it be viewed as follows.
FB is a US based service provider and therefore paying taxes in the US. The Kenya based user of FB is an importer of a service provided by a US based company via a digital channel. The data charges by the Kenya based telcos to the FB user is therefore equivalent to shipping costs. The telcos are therefore taxed in their own right as "shipping agents" since data is one of their revenue/profit channels which are subject to tax.
As the user, you are importing and consuming a service from a US based company, FB, and therefore citizen bound to pay import duty tax just like any other importer of goods and services.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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timuka2 wrote:Interesting debate!
Taxing FB would definitely be a toll order. However, could it be viewed as follows.
FB is a US based service provider and therefore paying taxes in the US. The Kenya based user of FB is an importer of a service provided by a US based company via a digital channel. The data charges by the Kenya based telcos to the FB user is therefore equivalent to shipping costs. The telcos are therefore taxed in their own right as "shipping agents" since data is one of their revenue/profit channels which are subject to tax.
As the user, you are importing and consuming a service from a US based company, FB, and therefore citizen bound to pay import duty tax just like any other importer of goods and services. I agree with you on the end user paying. But I still feel FB benefits unfairly from the data collected from collective Kenyans. The methodology of making FB to pay may be fuzzy but from a philosophical point of view they should pay. Govt should impose a tax and work on collecting it. Just like we did with free primary education and NHIF. Declare then work out the nitty gritty. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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timuka2 wrote:Interesting debate!
Taxing FB would definitely be a toll order. However, could it be viewed as follows.
FB is a US based service provider and therefore paying taxes in the US. The Kenya based user of FB is an importer of a service provided by a US based company via a digital channel. The data charges by the Kenya based telcos to the FB user is therefore equivalent to shipping costs. The telcos are therefore taxed in their own right as "shipping agents" since data is one of their revenue/profit channels which are subject to tax.
As the user, you are importing and consuming a service from a US based company, FB, and therefore citizen bound to pay import duty tax just like any other importer of goods and services. Do you get taxed when you show up at Tuskys and don't buy anything? "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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tom_boy wrote:timuka2 wrote:Interesting debate!
Taxing FB would definitely be a toll order. However, could it be viewed as follows.
FB is a US based service provider and therefore paying taxes in the US. The Kenya based user of FB is an importer of a service provided by a US based company via a digital channel. The data charges by the Kenya based telcos to the FB user is therefore equivalent to shipping costs. The telcos are therefore taxed in their own right as "shipping agents" since data is one of their revenue/profit channels which are subject to tax.
As the user, you are importing and consuming a service from a US based company, FB, and therefore citizen bound to pay import duty tax just like any other importer of goods and services. I agree with you on the end user paying. But I still feel FB benefits unfairly from the data collected from collective Kenyans. The methodology of making FB to pay may be fuzzy but from a philosophical point of view they should pay. Govt should impose a tax and work on collecting it. Just like we did with free primary education and NHIF. Declare then work out the nitty gritty. Do you use fb? If so how do they benefit from the data you gave them? "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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the debate about taxes is very simple... GAVA WILL ALWAYS TAX WHAT IT CAN GET AWAY WITH. plain and simple. everything else is putting lipstick on a pig. sijui social evils sijui excise.. sijui luxury goods... all that is mdomo... after the fact justification. if they could - they would tax githeri, unga and omena however they know they risk a tax revolt as most and at best being kicked out at the polls. Of course gava would try all things to make sure that you don't remember that it's all a made up thing. not a real thing... just a bunch of people instructing other people to do stuff for them. And since they cannot tax Facebook the company only countries where facebook operates can - the only way is to put a toll on individuals. The question is... will it stick? is FB githeri ama omena? All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:timuka2 wrote:Interesting debate!
Taxing FB would definitely be a toll order. However, could it be viewed as follows.
FB is a US based service provider and therefore paying taxes in the US. The Kenya based user of FB is an importer of a service provided by a US based company via a digital channel. The data charges by the Kenya based telcos to the FB user is therefore equivalent to shipping costs. The telcos are therefore taxed in their own right as "shipping agents" since data is one of their revenue/profit channels which are subject to tax.
As the user, you are importing and consuming a service from a US based company, FB, and therefore citizen bound to pay import duty tax just like any other importer of goods and services. I agree with you on the end user paying. But I still feel FB benefits unfairly from the data collected from collective Kenyans. The methodology of making FB to pay may be fuzzy but from a philosophical point of view they should pay. Govt should impose a tax and work on collecting it. Just like we did with free primary education and NHIF. Declare then work out the nitty gritty. Do you use fb? If so how do they benefit from the data you gave them? I don't. However, the data is useful to them when it comes to targeted advertisement. Most people think they are in control of their purchasing habits. This is far from the truth. Advertising and marketing has the ability to shift spending habits of a whole community. With your data, facebook can connect you directly with people selling things you would be likely to buy. Advertising creates the psychological need for the product then you go off and buy it. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Does Uganda still have poll tax? Administration is going to be tough. What if I'm like some of my colleagues who only access whatsapp using the office Wi-Fi? What if I have 2 lines?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 4/1/2009 Posts: 1,882
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Lolest! wrote:Does Uganda still have poll tax?
Administration is going to be tough. What if I'm like some of my colleagues who only access whatsapp using the office Wi-Fi?
What if I have 2 lines? believe they shall merely tax the airtime purchase. so regardless of whether you use the social media or not, if you buy airtime you pay it.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,979
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tom_boy wrote:murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:timuka2 wrote:Interesting debate!
Taxing FB would definitely be a toll order. However, could it be viewed as follows.
FB is a US based service provider and therefore paying taxes in the US. The Kenya based user of FB is an importer of a service provided by a US based company via a digital channel. The data charges by the Kenya based telcos to the FB user is therefore equivalent to shipping costs. The telcos are therefore taxed in their own right as "shipping agents" since data is one of their revenue/profit channels which are subject to tax.
As the user, you are importing and consuming a service from a US based company, FB, and therefore citizen bound to pay import duty tax just like any other importer of goods and services. I agree with you on the end user paying. But I still feel FB benefits unfairly from the data collected from collective Kenyans. The methodology of making FB to pay may be fuzzy but from a philosophical point of view they should pay. Govt should impose a tax and work on collecting it. Just like we did with free primary education and NHIF. Declare then work out the nitty gritty. Do you use fb? If so how do they benefit from the data you gave them? I don't. However, the data is useful to them when it comes to targeted advertisement. Most people think they are in control of their purchasing habits. This is far from the truth. Advertising and marketing has the ability to shift spending habits of a whole community. With your data, facebook can connect you directly with people selling things you would be likely to buy. Advertising creates the psychological need for the product then you go off and buy it. They dont take your data and "target market" What you do when you like those pages is just define what you are to them(Male, age, likes sports, likes Adidas, then gauge the number of times you login and the amount of time you spend there). You GIVE THEM YOUR DATA. Then they reach out to the marketers who have existing FB profiles (participants on this notice board IN THEIR COUNTRY OF RESIDENCY EU and US) and tell these people, hey...x number of people like what you do. For a fee would you like us to show them what you sell? If they agree everyone liking Adidas gets an advert placed by the side of their profile. You as a user, you are under no obligation to view the ad or click on the link, if you are REALLY interested, you may click to see what its about, otherwise its a choice. Not like TV where you have no choice. So even Tomboy in Kenya who happens to like Adidas on FB may have a link showing "new world cup ball on sale" on the side of his page. If tomboy decides to click on the link, then he is directed to the Adidas page showing the ball. If he decides to purchase the ball...he'll pay taxes in US and any other custom taxes that arise when the ball gets in Kenya. In short FB is like your online TV which is accessible everywhere, if I happen to watch a commercial on NTV live or Citizen Live while in China, the Chinese have no right to show up at Nation center demanding some tax. So FB is an enabler in Ecommerce, not really a shop, everyone wanting services from FB are purchasing the service from California, you just have access. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:timuka2 wrote:Interesting debate!
Taxing FB would definitely be a toll order. However, could it be viewed as follows.
FB is a US based service provider and therefore paying taxes in the US. The Kenya based user of FB is an importer of a service provided by a US based company via a digital channel. The data charges by the Kenya based telcos to the FB user is therefore equivalent to shipping costs. The telcos are therefore taxed in their own right as "shipping agents" since data is one of their revenue/profit channels which are subject to tax.
As the user, you are importing and consuming a service from a US based company, FB, and therefore citizen bound to pay import duty tax just like any other importer of goods and services. I agree with you on the end user paying. But I still feel FB benefits unfairly from the data collected from collective Kenyans. The methodology of making FB to pay may be fuzzy but from a philosophical point of view they should pay. Govt should impose a tax and work on collecting it. Just like we did with free primary education and NHIF. Declare then work out the nitty gritty. Do you use fb? If so how do they benefit from the data you gave them? I don't. However, the data is useful to them when it comes to targeted advertisement. Most people think they are in control of their purchasing habits. This is far from the truth. Advertising and marketing has the ability to shift spending habits of a whole community. With your data, facebook can connect you directly with people selling things you would be likely to buy. Advertising creates the psychological need for the product then you go off and buy it. They dont take your data and "target market" What you do when you like those pages is just define what you are to them(Male, age, likes sports, likes Adidas, then gauge the number of times you login and the amount of time you spend there). You GIVE THEM YOUR DATA. Then they reach out to the marketers who have existing FB profiles (participants on this notice board IN THEIR COUNTRY OF RESIDENCY EU and US) and tell these people, hey...x number of people like what you do. For a fee would you like us to show them what you sell? If they agree everyone liking Adidas gets an advert placed by the side of their profile. You as a user, you are under no obligation to view the ad or click on the link, if you are REALLY interested, you may click to see what its about, otherwise its a choice. Not like TV where you have no choice. So even Tomboy in Kenya who happens to like Adidas on FB may have a link showing "new world cup ball on sale" on the side of his page. If tomboy decides to click on the link, then he is directed to the Adidas page showing the ball. If he decides to purchase the ball...he'll pay taxes in US and any other custom taxes that arise when the ball gets in Kenya. In short FB is like your online TV which is accessible everywhere, if I happen to watch a commercial on NTV live or Citizen Live while in China, the Chinese have no right to show up at Nation center demanding some tax. So FB is an enabler in Ecommerce, not really a shop, everyone wanting services from FB are purchasing the service from California, you just have access. That's the simplified version they would have you believe. If that was the case why do they require all those permissions. Why were they accused in meddling in elections. How does FB establish and save/record my political affiliations. Why do they do social experiments on users without their consent. Why are other sites like gmail accused of scanning private email. Why do they need to do all these things if all FB is waiting for is for me to click and give them more info on myself. Your explanation is too simplistic. FB collects data on your location, can gauge your income level, knows what phone you are using, what sites you are visiting, your phone contacts, etc, so much more info than you voluntarily give when you sign up. It uses this info to specifically tailor advertising to you based on your location and expressed and not so obviously expressed preferences. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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