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murchr
#61 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2019 5:32:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,979
limanika wrote:
murchr wrote:
limanika wrote:
Ati all 11year olds to be shipped to (boarding) secondary schools under CBC. Just so you can strip KNUT off its members?

Has anyone ever done study why we have much indiscipline in boarding secondary schools and not the day schools.

Could be these kids move to secondary schools when still not mature and now govt wants to reduce the age even further?????


Kwani KNUT doesnt have Secondary sch teachers?

You dont know most Knut members are primary school teachers? And many secondary school teachers in KUPPET?


KNUT has membership from both primary and secondary
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
limanika
#62 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2019 5:41:25 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
murchr wrote:
limanika wrote:
murchr wrote:
limanika wrote:
Ati all 11year olds to be shipped to (boarding) secondary schools under CBC. Just so you can strip KNUT off its members?

Has anyone ever done study why we have much indiscipline in boarding secondary schools and not the day schools.

Could be these kids move to secondary schools when still not mature and now govt wants to reduce the age even further?????


Kwani KNUT doesnt have Secondary sch teachers?

You dont know most Knut members are primary school teachers? And many secondary school teachers in KUPPET?


KNUT has membership from both primary and secondary

Most KNUT members are primary school teachers. So you reduce number of primary sch teachers you reduce membership.

But can we focus on the more substantive matter at hand. Separating entire generations of kids from parents at age 11 to join secondary, is it good for the nation?
murchr
#63 Posted : Friday, August 16, 2019 5:55:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,979
limanika wrote:
murchr wrote:
limanika wrote:
murchr wrote:
limanika wrote:
Ati all 11year olds to be shipped to (boarding) secondary schools under CBC. Just so you can strip KNUT off its members?

Has anyone ever done study why we have much indiscipline in boarding secondary schools and not the day schools.

Could be these kids move to secondary schools when still not mature and now govt wants to reduce the age even further?????


Kwani KNUT doesnt have Secondary sch teachers?

You dont know most Knut members are primary school teachers? And many secondary school teachers in KUPPET?


KNUT has membership from both primary and secondary

Most KNUT members are primary school teachers. So you reduce number of primary sch teachers you reduce membership.

But can we focus on the more substantive matter at hand. Separating entire generations of kids from parents at age 11 to join secondary, is it good for the nation?


Whatever those teachers will be called - secondary intermediary primary etc their membership to knut is not determined by the kind of school they are teaching.

If a teacher doesnt feel represented by KNUT they can easily cease being members by the way, govt doesn't dictate.

And as a parent, you can always take your child to a day school....we live in a free world.

I went to boarding sch at 9 in the foothills of Aberdares and I turned out alright, very independent.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
radiomast
#64 Posted : Monday, August 19, 2019 5:20:35 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
If they are scrapping national exams, then what is the criteria for admission to national schools like Alliance and who will go to provincial schools?
thuks
#65 Posted : Monday, August 19, 2019 6:31:21 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/8/2008
Posts: 1,575
radiomast wrote:
If they are scrapping national exams, then what is the criteria for admission to national schools like Alliance and who will go to provincial schools?

They can use the points accumulated over several years to place the students. A better measure of ability than a one-off examination. I would support this
I care!
radiomast
#66 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 4:27:02 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
thuks wrote:
radiomast wrote:
If they are scrapping national exams, then what is the criteria for admission to national schools like Alliance and who will go to provincial schools?

They can use the points accumulated over several years to place the students. A better measure of ability than a one-off examination. I would support this


Then teachers, especially head-teachers are about to become very wealthy. Parents will bribe teachers to award students extra points. Students will be getting points for doing extra work, sweeping the floor, knitting a good sweater, carrying the teachers' bag, washing the teacher's car etc etc. There is no objective criteria for awarding points.

Due to lack of objective criteria, there will be fisticuffs between broke parents who can't afford to bribe and teachers.

Private schools will especially become notorious for helping students accumulate points.

There are about one million KCPE candidates each year. I am certain that by the time the students reach standard six, half a million of them will have accumulated enough points to go to a national school.

So now who will go to Alliance and Kenya High and who will go to Jamhuri high and Ngara girls and who will go to Ruthimitu mixed and Shadrack Kimalel?

We don't know because 500,000 students have all accumulated maximum points and their parents are demanding a spot at Alliance.

limanika
#67 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 6:11:08 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
radiomast wrote:
thuks wrote:
radiomast wrote:
If they are scrapping national exams, then what is the criteria for admission to national schools like Alliance and who will go to provincial schools?

They can use the points accumulated over several years to place the students. A better measure of ability than a one-off examination. I would support this


Then teachers, especially head-teachers are about to become very wealthy. Parents will bribe teachers to award students extra points. Students will be getting points for doing extra work, sweeping the floor, knitting a good sweater, carrying the teachers' bag, washing the teacher's car etc etc. There is no objective criteria for awarding points.

Due to lack of objective criteria, there will be fisticuffs between broke parents who can't afford to bribe and teachers.

Private schools will especially become notorious for helping students accumulate points.

There are about one million KCPE candidates each year. I am certain that by the time the students reach standard six, half a million of them will have accumulated enough points to go to a national school.

So now who will go to Alliance and Kenya High and who will go to Jamhuri high and Ngara girls and who will go to Ruthimitu mixed and Shadrack Kimalel?

We don't know because 500,000 students have all accumulated maximum points and their parents are demanding a spot at Alliance.


I think the selection system to secondary schools will change completely from the way we know it. So, pupils will apply to join secondary schools of their choice, and each school will have own criteria of selection. So some school may rely on pupil's academic reports while others may subject the kids to entrance exams/interviews. Either way the system will favor private secondary schools so that's where the next money is. My beef is separating kids when too young. This new system is copy cat of what happens in some European countries. Children who leave home too Early tend to be too independent. Whether this good or not good is in the eye of the beholder
radiomast
#68 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 8:03:14 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
limanika wrote:

I think the selection system to secondary schools will change completely from the way we know it. So, pupils will apply to join secondary schools of their choice, and each school will have own criteria of selection. So some school may rely on pupil's academic reports while others may subject the kids to entrance exams/interviews. Either way the system will favor private secondary schools so that's where the next money is. My beef is separating kids when too young. This new system is copy cat of what happens in some European countries. Children who leave home too Early tend to be too independent. Whether this good or not good is in the eye of the beholder


This system you propose is also prone to rampant corruption and inefficiency.

If schools require interviews then head-teachers will receive bribes to inflate grades of certain students. Teachers will leak the interview exam to whichever student has paid a bribe.

Students for their part will be forced to take several interview exams at different schools since they don't know which school will accept them.

If schools use report forms then some head-teachers will make their tests easy so that all their students can qualify to go to a national school.

Teachers will take bribes to make report forms look good.

Parents will resort to taking their children to schools with easier exams so that their report forms can look good.

And cheating will be far more rampant. Its easier to get leakage in a school exam than in a national exam.

newfarer
#69 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 8:08:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
do we have countries with successful similar practices or are we going to use our kids as guinea pigs.i think this system has many gray areas not to mention that we expect the same teachers who have always felt oppressed to implement the same system that they also don't understand
punda amecheka
radiomast
#70 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 8:11:37 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
Many western countries don't have national exams for entry into high school. The reason it works for them is because students get automatic entry into the school that is in their neighbourhood. So for example if you live in Lavington then you get automatic entry into Patch or Kabz. If you live at Laini saba then you get automatic entry into Shadrack Kimalel. And if you live near Thompson falls then you attend Ndururumo secondary.

That system leaves very little room for corruption and inefficiency. Residents of a location take pride in their local school and they work with the school boards and teachers to improve their schools. Their local property taxes go towards improving the school. So if you want a good school system then you must be willing to pay high property taxes.

if there are no national exams then Kenya may have to scrap national schools and leave it to local school boards to improve their schools. Because otherwise there is no objective criteria for determining who can join a national school
newfarer
#71 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 8:18:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
the random computer generated transfer of teachers is still still very rampant.infact they have transferred teachers to report third term this year.some of the with special needs or nearing retirement.these are the people you expect to implement the system yet they feel mistreated.you have never worked with demoralized workers to understand what I mean.

how do you transfer class 8 teacher in 3rd term when pupils need them most.tsc is either 'hardwooding'itself or the government
punda amecheka
radiomast
#72 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 8:21:47 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
newfarer wrote:
do we have countries with successful similar practices or are we going to use our kids as guinea pigs.i think this system has many gray areas not to mention that we expect the same teachers who have always felt oppressed to implement the same system that they also don't understand


Im getting the impression that they did not think this through properly. What works in a western nation may not work in Kenya. Square hole, round peg.
Obi 1 Kanobi
#73 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 8:36:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
radiomast wrote:
Many western countries don't have national exams for entry into high school. The reason it works for them is because students get automatic entry into the school that is in their neighbourhood. So for example if you live in Lavington then you get automatic entry into Patch or Kabz. If you live at Laini saba then you get automatic entry into Shadrack Kimalel. And if you live near Thompson falls then you attend Ndururumo secondary.

That system leaves very little room for corruption and inefficiency. Residents of a location take pride in their local school and they work with the school boards and teachers to improve their schools. Their local property taxes go towards improving the school. So if you want a good school system then you must be willing to pay high property taxes.

if there are no national exams then Kenya may have to scrap national schools and leave it to local school boards to improve their schools. Because otherwise there is no objective criteria for determining who can join a national school

This is what we need to implement in Kenya for our education system to get to the next level. Exams should be for assessment only and not for placement in preferred schools.

The practice of competing for basic education creates a culture of scarcity which endures throughout our lives.

The government should introduce schools zoning for basic education, and then divest from universities and let them be run without govt interference.

The input of the govt in education should end at standard setting and funding.

Teachers should also be directly employed by schools complimented maybe by local govt and not by the PSC.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
limanika
#74 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 9:01:51 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
radiomast wrote:
limanika wrote:

I think the selection system to secondary schools will change completely from the way we know it. So, pupils will apply to join secondary schools of their choice, and each school will have own criteria of selection. So some school may rely on pupil's academic reports while others may subject the kids to entrance exams/interviews. Either way the system will favor private secondary schools so that's where the next money is. My beef is separating kids when too young. This new system is copy cat of what happens in some European countries. Children who leave home too Early tend to be too independent. Whether this good or not good is in the eye of the beholder


This system you propose is also prone to rampant corruption and inefficiency.

If schools require interviews then head-teachers will receive bribes to inflate grades of certain students. Teachers will leak the interview exam to whichever student has paid a bribe.

Students for their part will be forced to take several interview exams at different schools since they don't know which school will accept them.

If schools use report forms then some head-teachers will make their tests easy so that all their students can qualify to go to a national school.

Teachers will take bribes to make report forms look good.

Parents will resort to taking their children to schools with easier exams so that their report forms can look good.

And cheating will be far more rampant. Its easier to get leakage in a school exam than in a national exam.


It's not yours truly proposing. We're just trying to figure out possibilities how it can work since you know very well our govt is very poor in planning and they may not have thought this through. Imagine such a radical change without public participation.
radiomast
#75 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 9:28:08 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:



This is what we need to implement in Kenya for our education system to get to the next level. Exams should be for assessment only and not for placement in preferred schools.

The practice of competing for basic education creates a culture of scarcity which endures throughout our lives.

The government should introduce schools zoning for basic education, and then divest from universities and let them be run without govt interference.

The input of the govt in education should end at standard setting and funding.

Teachers should also be directly employed by schools complimented maybe by local govt and not by the PSC.


If Kenyans want schools to be based on zones then they should put zoning in place before making such a drastic change. And make sure each zone has sufficient schools. For example, You can't have a zone with 10,000 standard six pupils and only one school.

Also People should know exactly which schools are in their zone and they should have proper documentation to prove that they live in that zone.

But zoning still does not address what to do if a parent wants their children to attend a boarding school. Imagine if you live in South B and their is no boarding school in your zone. Yet your child will only succeed if they go to boarding since the home is too crowded.

In western countries, this is not an issue because most parents want day schools. There are very few boarding schools and those that exist are typically private and expensive and thus mainly for rich people.

And finally it might be too late to introduce zoning in Nairobi since the city was not planned with school zones in mind. Imagine a zone like Kibera with 500,000 people. Kibera zone will require at least 5 additional schools. Where is the space to build those schools?

And if you are born in Kibera and all the schools in your zone are mediocre, you are doomed to attending a mediocre school. As a parent, you cant aspire to better your child by sending them to Starehe or any good school because its not in your zone. You are doomed to mediocrity.

All these factors needed to be considered before such a drastic change.
radiomast
#76 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 9:32:25 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/15/2018
Posts: 428
limanika wrote:


It's not yours truly proposing. We're just trying to figure out possibilities how it can work since you know very well our govt is very poor in planning and they may not have thought this through. Imagine such a radical change without public participation.


And every time you make a policy proposal in Kenya, you must account for the fact that our culture is steeped in corruption.

It is so steeped in corruption that public officials who don't make money from corruption are considered fools.

So every policy proposal must address the issue of corruption and bribery and cartels.

One good thing about national exams is the system has built in tools that make it easy to stamp out corruption. But with this new system, cartels will have a field day. Opportunities for corruption are limitless.

But even more importantly, the quality of education could be lowered significantly.
murchr
#77 Posted : Tuesday, August 20, 2019 10:21:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,979
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
radiomast wrote:
Many western countries don't have national exams for entry into high school. The reason it works for them is because students get automatic entry into the school that is in their neighbourhood. So for example if you live in Lavington then you get automatic entry into Patch or Kabz. If you live at Laini saba then you get automatic entry into Shadrack Kimalel. And if you live near Thompson falls then you attend Ndururumo secondary.

That system leaves very little room for corruption and inefficiency. Residents of a location take pride in their local school and they work with the school boards and teachers to improve their schools. Their local property taxes go towards improving the school. So if you want a good school system then you must be willing to pay high property taxes.

if there are no national exams then Kenya may have to scrap national schools and leave it to local school boards to improve their schools. Because otherwise there is no objective criteria for determining who can join a national school


This is what we need to implement in Kenya for our education system to get to the next level. Exams should be for assessment only and not for placement in preferred schools.

The practice of competing for basic education creates a culture of scarcity which endures throughout our lives.

The government should introduce schools zoning for basic education, and then divest from universities and let them be run without govt interference.

The input of the govt in education should end at standard setting and funding.

Teachers should also be directly employed by schools complimented maybe by local govt and not by the PSC.


Umedunga point kweli kweli.

Guys get your head out of the school competition thing; Its coming to an end.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
newfarer
#78 Posted : Wednesday, August 21, 2019 6:14:38 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
murchr wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
radiomast wrote:
Many western countries don't have national exams for entry into high school. The reason it works for them is because students get automatic entry into the school that is in their neighbourhood. So for example if you live in Lavington then you get automatic entry into Patch or Kabz. If you live at Laini saba then you get automatic entry into Shadrack Kimalel. And if you live near Thompson falls then you attend Ndururumo secondary.

That system leaves very little room for corruption and inefficiency. Residents of a location take pride in their local school and they work with the school boards and teachers to improve their schools. Their local property taxes go towards improving the school. So if you want a good school system then you must be willing to pay high property taxes.

if there are no national exams then Kenya may have to scrap national schools and leave it to local school boards to improve their schools. Because otherwise there is no objective criteria for determining who can join a national school


This is what we need to implement in Kenya for our education system to get to the next level. Exams should be for assessment only and not for placement in preferred schools.

The practice of competing for basic education creates a culture of scarcity which endures throughout our lives.

The government should introduce schools zoning for basic education, and then divest from universities and let them be run without govt interference.

The input of the govt in education should end at standard setting and funding.

Teachers should also be directly employed by schools complimented maybe by local govt and not by the PSC.


Umedunga point kweli kweli.

Guys get your head out of the school competition thing; Its coming to an end.

not in Kenya..the new system means if you are poor it will remain a generational curse.you will never come out of that poverty chain.atleast with exams you can read hard and go to 'starehe' and change your fortune.that kibra kid will just be condemned to life of kibra.the rich will relocate to say mangu just to be zoned within mangu high.or kikuyu for alliance girls where they already have a head start in terms of learning resources.

to me there is nothing wrong with the current system were it not infiltrated with corruption .

you just need to look for guys who went through the first years of 844 and were serious in their studies and life and you would agree that they are all rounded
punda amecheka
tom_boy
#79 Posted : Wednesday, August 21, 2019 8:49:13 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
In my opinion, 8-4-4 was very good. Its well structured with ample opportunity to explore talents outside hard core academics. Problem was poor implementation. Second problem was too much focus on university and neeglecting polytechnics. Third problem was introduction of mitumba clothes, shoes and cheap chinese stuff.

The current curriculum is politically motivated. Govt had no money to fund free education which they promised for political benefit and at instigation of interest groups. The curriculum had to be changed to accomodate interest groups. Why else do you have children being taught about gays, 2 dad and 2 mum families and transgender. This is indoctrination of our children into things that should remain a non issue.

Lakini we have corrupt leaders who think they can create their own education, health and security bubbles if they can steal enough
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
MuchNo
#80 Posted : Wednesday, August 21, 2019 9:12:17 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/3/2008
Posts: 48
tom_boy wrote:
In my opinion, 8-4-4 was very good. Its well structured with ample opportunity to explore talents outside hard core academics. Problem was poor implementation. Second problem was too much focus on university and neeglecting polytechnics. Third problem was introduction of mitumba clothes, shoes and cheap chinese stuff.

The current curriculum is politically motivated. Govt had no money to fund free education which they promised for political benefit and at instigation of interest groups. The curriculum had to be changed to accomodate interest groups. Why else do you have children being taught about gays, 2 dad and 2 mum families and transgender. This is indoctrination of our children into things that should remain a non issue.

Lakini we have corrupt leaders who think they can create their own education, health and security bubbles if they can steal enough



Ati what? There is illegality being promoted in our schools? I thought homosexuality was illegal? If so, how are our kids being taught about it?

Quite frankly, I'm not against it - I just see some fundamental double standards here,...

If that's the case, then in my opinion they should legalize it,... just like they ought to legalize cannabis! Nkt!
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