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Catalonian referendum and questions of nationhood
FRM2011
#1 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 9:19:37 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459
Good morning,

I am requesting Wazuans who read a lot to weigh in on this debate.

The Catalonians feel they are not part of Spain. The political and legal question that went all the way to the supreme court was whether they (catalonians) alone should make that decision or should it be made by all spanish citizens.

Supreme court ruled on the latter. A referendum must be held by the whole country to decide whether catalonia can secede. But catalonians would hear none of it. They insisted on having a referendum yesterday leading to ugly confrontations with national police.

Now to my philosophical question ?

What is a nation ? Or what should hold a nation together ? If a significant section of the population feels they don't have a sense of belonging to a nation, should they be held using military force ?

But then again democracy is too dicey to let it be the guide for such significant decisions.

If only 51% of catalonians want to secede, it also means the other 49% plus the rest of the country want the country intact. Should the threshold be much higher.

Closer home, suppose our brothers from Homabay county upon discovering that their land is filled with valuable minerals feel they want to go it alone. Should we hold on to them by force. What should be the reasonable threshold to let them go ?

Shouldn't nationhood be a question of a shared sense of both heritage and destiny ? Such that we stay together because we want to and not because there is no choice.

The Crimea region in Ukraine successfully seceded and joined Russia where they felt they belonged. Russia propaganda machine has been on overdrive from yesterday mocking the fake democracy in Europe after images of spanish police clobbering voters.

@masukuma, I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
KulaRaha
#2 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 9:28:50 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
Spanish state police were busy Boinetting citizens all over.
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
tycho
#3 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 10:34:13 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
A nation is a collective of people, culture and institutions aspiring to an identity and purpose which may or may not be a state.

In the case of Catalonia, the big problem is in the matter of statehood and not nationhood. Catalonian demands are a destabilizing factor for the Spanish state and states are held together by force, and threats of force.

The proportions of those who want to secede are important but not as much as the force, violent or otherwise, that they may wield.

Normally, states are results of wars. There's this other nation that has wanted to secede from Spain, and they have fought for it but because they threatened to spill into France, the French state collaborated with the Spanish state to crush the resistance...
masukuma
#4 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 10:40:03 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Kenya is not a nation! To me 'nations' are groups of people... the Kikuyu Nation, the Luo Nation e.t.c. that is clear. if an ethnic group has a distingusishable culture - you are a nation. not all nations have states and so perhaps what you meant to as is what is a 'state' or a 'nation state'. a 'nation state' is where you have something like Lesotho - a country of the Basotho people. an ethnically distinct country. Sometimes this results from multiethnic state i.e. a big country that has everyone mixed in there and a certain group decide "wameTosha" and break-off to make their own. sometimes the process is peaceful (i can only remember czechoslovakia) but mostly it's bloody! The catalans want out to create their own 'nation state'.
I had an interesting discussion over the same matter yesterday over lunch with some of my colleagues - one is from Kosovo and another from Georgia. We discussed why Kosovo left Serbia and really why Yugoslavia collapsed in the first place and what life was like before that. We also discussed Georgia under USSR, the collapse of the USSR and even the struggle in Chechnya! It downed on me that states are not really permanent things. Ethnicities are... not states! What we have is work in progress, Let's face it - what we are seeing is not the complete thing. The pen that is writing history has not run out of ink

in my life time USSR broke, Yugoslavia broke, czechoslovakia broke, Namibia broke off SA, sudan broke, Ukraine broke, Eriteria broke off Ethiopia. The Québécois want their own country. Donesk? Texas? Mwambao? Puntland? Will the Kurds ever get their own country? Biafra?
What is Kenya really? the only thing that makes me think 'Kenya' is what unites us. Our products... that everyone takes pride in e.g. Sports? nothing else. during my discussion with the Georgian and Kosovo Albanian i realized that during the USSR times and Yugoslavia - these countries had a car! a car made in like 15 places! each state contributed to the 'national' car and everyone was proud of it! For awhile under the iron curtain and lack of information of what others are having out there - life moved on well. When information flows as I illustrated in the Social inequity aversion In the face of unfairness - people are no longer willing to put up with 'good enough' when they see unfairness.
Perhaps what we need to do is ask - kinda like in marriage, how do we make the people who want to leave - feel like staying? How do we make it worth their while! After all - like marriage... lines that distinguish states exist in our collective imaginations and on paper! I say - they need to feel part of the bigger state! What would make the Homabay county people fend off secession? interests!!! it's a question of 'shareholding'... one which every big business founder faces at one point in their lives 100% of a small business or a fraction of a big business - Make them see having 10% of a large cake is better than 100% of a really small cake! the Yugo used to be the car of the Yugoslavia... what is our collective product? Secondly, how do you vent out ethnic tensions? The Romans and Greeks did it very well... they had sports! Sports are great for scratching ethnic egos and less harmful than wars. Think about it.. what would happen if Kikuyus had a proper football team and they played against Sirkal and lost? or sometimes won? do you remember the AFC vs Gor matches of prior times? Do you see tension between "mashemeji"?

I wrote some of my thoughts on the Why i think Uhuru should lose and possibly will lose!! thread sometime back. From my perspective - the Kikuyus are squandering the time in the sun. Squandering uthamaki! I think my people are too utilitarian to realize that
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#5 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 11:35:33 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
nimeona ingine inaiwa 'Ambazonia'
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#6 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 11:38:12 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
A nation is a collective of people, culture and institutions aspiring to an identity and purpose which may or may not be a state.

In the case of Catalonia, the big problem is in the matter of statehood and not nationhood. Catalonian demands are a destabilizing factor for the Spanish state and states are held together by force, and threats of force.

The proportions of those who want to secede are important but not as much as the force, violent or otherwise, that they may wield.

Normally, states are results of wars. There's this other nation that has wanted to secede from Spain, and they have fought for it but because they threatened to spill into France, the French state collaborated with the Spanish state to crush the resistance...


The nation that has long wanted to secede from the Spanish state is the Basque nation. They are a country within two states...

That is, not all countries are states, and most states aren't nations.

This may be an important topic because we seem to have gotten it wrong from the begining. See Tom Mboya's 'challenge of nationhood' and even Jaramogi's 'Not yet Uhuru'.

Are states capable of independence? Are there any political entities capable of independence? So far, proof is that the answers to tbese questions are negative.

masukuma
#7 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 11:56:12 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
I must admit - I don't know how the US has stayed united all this time. I haven't really thought about it properly. However, dispite the disparities they have been able to keep their country united (with exclusion of the times Texas always wants out when a democrat president takes the helm). I think they have done this over and over again by
1) creating an enemy 'outside'. Sometimes all these wars may be thought of a way of uniting people at home. the narrative of our soldiers fighting for our freedom outside may be unifying
2) Media - movies have done this over and over again. sometimes painting the outside world as vile (the russians for a while, the Vietnamese). Movies that show how poor the rest of the world must massage the egos of the poor side of the US... knowing... we are better off than those people. As Binyavanga Wainaina once quipped in a video - perhaps the US needs Africa as a boogieman... the one you point at when you want kids to eat their veggies. The one you point out when someone is feeling unsatisfied with the status quo.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Anti_Burglar
#8 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 12:10:43 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024


The geo politics due to this will be quite something to watch.

There are several geopolitical powers who are quite willing to dice up the middle east, especially Syria but starting with Iraq, seeing that the ISIS phenomenon is being dissolved. Yet recognising that Kurdistan will mean recognising Catalonia and maybe even Crimea and that will create complications for them over the current bogeyman.

This is a tough quandary this is.
FRM2011
#9 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 12:32:27 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459

Thanks everyone for the illuminating debate.

Singapore's divorce from Malaysia was most interesting. It's Malaysia that voted to kick out the "Sumbua" Singapore. Looking back may be that divorce in 1965 was the best thing for both parties.

During Mzee's time, Kenya's NEP wanted to secede to Somalia. Mzee refused and ordered a referendum to settle the matter. The secessionists lost. Can't help but think maybe the residents of NEP would be better off today had they joined their kin in Somalia.

The English-speaking region in Cameroon has gone as far as declaring independence. This has no legal basis but still........

Lolest!
#10 Posted : Monday, October 02, 2017 12:41:57 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Quote:
Can't help but think maybe the residents of NEP would be better off today had they joined their kin in Somalia.

How?
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
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