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What is Democracy?
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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All voting systems are equivalent in that they all confirm Arrow's 'Impossibilty theorem'.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 4,057 Location: Gwitu
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What we call elections in Kenya are more of tribal census than democracy Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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kaka2za wrote:What we call elections in Kenya are more of tribal census than democracy What we have is democracy driven by ethnic consensus. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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An election decision appears to have at least two components: an idea/ideas to be implemented, and the people to implement those ideas.
But when we're voting we tend to impute the idea(s) needed to one person who then invites other persons to the implementation phase without these other people being voted for by the people.
To me this is problematic. Firstly, it's not optimal to expect that the best idea(s) for the body politic are partisan or even can come out of a single person. The creation of ideas is more dynamic and exacting than that.
Would it then be better if citizens first interacted with possible ideas and solutions they need, vote for a set of ideas, then after that people/politicians can form their preferred teams and present themselves and the teams as the proposed implementers of the chosen ideas?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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masukuma wrote:kaka2za wrote:What we call elections in Kenya are more of tribal census than democracy What we have is democracy driven by ethnic consensus. Has it ever been different? We just saw the Rednecks clan of the White tribe vote in their own in Amerika. As long as people tend to support 'their own' politics will always be tribal - any sanitising semantics not withstanding. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:masukuma wrote:kaka2za wrote:What we call elections in Kenya are more of tribal census than democracy What we have is democracy driven by ethnic consensus. Has it ever been different? We just saw the Rednecks clan of the White tribe vote in their own in Amerika. As long as people tend to support 'their own' politics will always be tribal - any sanitising semantics not withstanding. it's always been by congregations of people. humans are interesting beings - we can compute lot's of stuff but our brains prefer heuristics. these are like shortcuts. let me give you an example - when in a foreign country and you are walking in an all white country what happens when you see an african brother walking in your direction? you at least give him the " nod" and a smile and if the last african you saw was on the plane leaving Kenya 2 months ago - you will stop and say 'hi!'. Akiwa mkenya? you will feel like you struck the motherlode! it won't matter where he is from in Kenya - that guy says 'i recommend this restaurant - it has great food'. I bet $1000 you will go to the refered restaurant! why? coz we have a heuristic that runs in us that tells us - this guy is from the same setting i am from and he knows my concerns and what i may like. Akiwa mTanzania? you will struggle to correct your swahili as much as you can. you will find yourself calling him 'kaka' e.t.c. why? because inately we believe these people may know our needs better that the random white faces. I have found myself hanging out with african americans in a 3rd country coz we share something... as soon as i discover a continental african - i move hata kama ni west african. an east african? you do the same!! \the debate on 'manual' and 'electronic' is the same - people ask themselves (subconsciously), i really don't understand this BUT WHAT IS FULANI WA FULANI SAYING ABOUT THIS? wanakufa huko! voting is the same! we run heuristics!  All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Lolest! wrote:Or rather how do you determine a country is democratic or not?
US have had their Trump elections. Loser of the popular vote is declared winner. Yaani, the minority have decided for the majority.
In UK, the High Court has ruled that the Brexit referendum is only advisory. Parliament will be the final decision making organ. Not the people. And yes, they could decide to stay in EU!
Me thinks hakuna demokrasia Brito na Stato! There has never been a pure democracy anywhere on Earth. Even the Athenian version, hailed as direct democracy, only permitted freemen to vote (no slaves or women). That said, in my opinion, a system that allows majority will to prevail, no matter how flawed, is an acceptable definition of democracy. Thus the UK and US are not perfect democracies but in both cases the will of the majority prevails, even when the decisions (as in Brexit, Trump etc) are clearly objectionable. The European version, on the other hand, is the real joke. If Brexit had been a European plebiscite, they would have forced the British to vote again until they came up with the desired result. @Wakanyugi, are you a 'Platonist' by any chance? Only up to a point. As in for instance, the belief that most of what we call reality is abstract and immutable - existing beyond the spcetime frame of reference - yet still objectively perceivable by those who desire to 'know.' That I believe. As for leadership, Plato favored the idea of philosopher Kings, whose role was partly to modify poor decisions that the plebeian hordes may make in the practice of democracy. According to him it would have made sense for US/UK leaders to reverse the recent Brexit/Trump decisions seeing as they are likely to be harmful to a large majority, including those who voted for them. Ayn Rand would agree. As for me, I say with Achebe "the will of the people is the will of God" and democracy includes the right to be wrong. My question about Plato is mostly directed to your first paragraph in your response. It's related to 'forms' and in this case one would infer that 'democracy' is a form out there that is accessible in varying degrees.@Lolest also seems to have similar sentiments. I suspect that formism is outdated or untrue and probably the question posed by @Lolest is not properly stated... In that case yes, you could say I am a Platonista. Where he uses the term 'form' I use 'pattern' - same difference. The discussion we are having would seem to indicate that formism is not outdated at all Democracy is an ideal in conceptual form - more real in our mind than outside it. Our frustration with the concept comes largely from the difficulty we have in reproducing it into the perceptual world of space and time, human relations and other 'imperfections' that attend Earthly reality. But Plato would also say that the it is not in realizing democracy that we achieve greatness but rather in the striving towards the unattainable. The effort is more important than the reward. How do things get outdated? When their usefulness is depleted, not when their names are 'unuttered'. So talk about forms doesn't make forms relevant, at least in practical conduct. Your last paragraph is about Plato being a champion of fantasy. And that, he recommends fantasy, or action driven by fantasy. Why? Because one kind of fantasy is better than another? There must be a way that goes beyond fantasy.In making democracy a fantasy, and insisting that it's also not a fantasy, is a ridiculous position. I will assume that by fantasy you mean 'imagined' All that we call reality is fantasy. That includes the wall you are sitting on or the chair you are looking at. You can imagine it different and you often do. In fact that is how you create your reality. Therefore taking the democratic idea from 'ideal' to 'reality' simply means perceiving the same fantasy from one frame of reference to another. The frames may be different, making the paintings enclosed within look different, but they are the same. So why does 'reality' often look so different from the imagined? One reason is we tend to imagine things sans time. Let me explain: Lets us say you are in love. When you think about the girl you love what do you see? Perfection, completion - the object of you imagination in all her glory, all grown up and tastefully dressed I assume. But the truth is there is no such a being. Your imagination misses the entire 'messy' process of growth and development that has brought the girl you love to this point in time where you idolize her. A process that is still going on. Same with democracy. In our mental frame democracy is perceived as complete while in the 3D frame it is still becoming. But it is the same thing, only seen from different frames of reference. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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masukuma wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:masukuma wrote:kaka2za wrote:What we call elections in Kenya are more of tribal census than democracy What we have is democracy driven by ethnic consensus. Has it ever been different? We just saw the Rednecks clan of the White tribe vote in their own in Amerika. As long as people tend to support 'their own' politics will always be tribal - any sanitising semantics not withstanding. it's always been by congregations of people. humans are interesting beings - we can compute lot's of stuff but our brains prefer heuristics. these are like shortcuts. let me give you an example - when in a foreign country and you are walking in an all white country what happens when you see an african brother walking in your direction? you at least give him the "nod" and a smile and if the last african you saw was on the plane leaving Kenya 2 months ago - you will stop and say 'hi!'. Akiwa mkenya? you will feel like you struck the motherlode! it won't matter where he is from in Kenya - that guy says 'i recommend this restaurant - it has great food'. I bet $1000 you will go to the refered restaurant! why? coz we have a heuristic that runs in us that tells us - this guy is from the same setting i am from and he knows my concerns and what i may like. Akiwa mTanzania? you will struggle to correct your swahili as much as you can. you will find yourself calling him 'kaka' e.t.c. why? because inately we believe these people may know our needs better that the random white faces. I have found myself hanging out with african americans in a 3rd country coz we share something... as soon as i discover a continental african - i move hata kama Very good argument So my question is: why do we waste so much energy demonizing a universal human trait? For instance a common narrative used to demonize Kikuyus is that they vote only their own. Who doesn't? In fact even those who don't vote their tribe do (always the first choice) will defer to the next best alternative that promises to meet their needs. And by the way I think this tribal trait is more than a heuristic. More like an evolutionary survival mechanism. A hold over from a time when wondering too far from the cave or failing to identify your own in a mixed group meant a high risk of becoming past tense. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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This is democracy according to USA.
Hillary 65,844,954 votes (48.2%)
Trump 62,979,879 votes (46.1%)
Hillary led by 2.9 million votes but that doesn't matter in the leading democracy in the world.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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hardwood wrote:This is democracy according to USA.
Hillary 65,844,954 votes (48.2%)
Trump 62,979,879 votes (46.1%)
Hillary led by 2.9 million votes but that doesn't matter in the leading democracy in the world. It is a perverse system for sure where the looser is declared the winner. But no more perverse than Kenya yetu hii, where a fellow who lost by almost 800,000 votes last time still sings that he won. Democracy is what you say it is. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/9/2009 Posts: 6,592 Location: Nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:hardwood wrote:This is democracy according to USA.
Hillary 65,844,954 votes (48.2%)
Trump 62,979,879 votes (46.1%)
Hillary led by 2.9 million votes but that doesn't matter in the leading democracy in the world. It is a perverse system for sure where the looser is declared the winner. But no more perverse than Kenya yetu hii, where a fellow who lost by almost 800,000 votes last time still sings that he won. Democracy is what you say it is. Boss, ni hallucinations ama? You are right, baba lost by 800,000 and he is not President.
BBI will solve it :)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Quote:There are 2.1 million registered taxpayers in Kenya. There are 19.6 million registered voters in Kenya.
Well, the electoral body has 19.6 million names on the voters’ roll and Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) received returns from 2.4 million people by the end of June 30, 2017. The 2.1 million mentioned in the tweet was the number announced on June 29.
In my opinion, this is a fundamental flaw in the one-man-one-vote electoral democracy. I think we should change it so that on those registered as taxpayers should be allowed to vote – barring, of course, companies, societies and other corporate entities. http://www.nation.co.ke/...15756-vtunqoz/index.html
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/9/2006 Posts: 1,502
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I have always maintained voting should be a privilege for TAX payers only work to prosper
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/22/2008 Posts: 2,697
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Tokyo wrote:I have always maintained voting should be a privilege for TAX payers only In that case everybody should vote because everybody in Kenya pays VAT. If I was to restrict voting I would introduce age expiry. After the age of 70 you should not vote. Youngest age would also be increased to 25 from 18. I would also weight the votes differently. One man would get one vote and one woman would get one and a half votes so that 10 womens votes would be equal to 15 men.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Quote:In that case everybody should vote because everybody in Kenya pays VAT. See what that former wazuan in the link above says: Quote:But then there is an argument that everybody pays Value Added Tax (VAT) when they purchase goods and services; so everyone is a taxpayer. That reasoning is fundamentally flawed! The fact that you buy things is proof that you have an income and anybody who has an income is supposed to paay tax. If you don’t, then you are a tax-evader and you shouldn’t get the right to vote. After all, those who pay income tax also pay VAT!
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/9/2007 Posts: 13,095
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Tokyo wrote:I have always maintained voting should be a privilege for TAX payers only In that case those who pay more taxes should have their votes count for more, more like a shareholding kind off and corporate organizations should also be allowed to vote given they pay more tax, right?
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/9/2012 Posts: 576
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washiku wrote:Tokyo wrote:I have always maintained voting should be a privilege for TAX payers only In that case those who pay more taxes should have their votes count for more, more like a shareholding kind off and corporate organizations should also be allowed to vote given they pay more tax, right?  So lets assume Royal Media is the highest Tax payer Is Royal Media dependent on Kenyans or are Kenyans dependent on Royal media?If Royal media closed Kenya as a Sovereign Nation would go on,and its people would continue determining their destiny(voting) When it comes to Nationhood that argument is flawed Africa belongs to Africans.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/9/2012 Posts: 576
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washiku wrote:Tokyo wrote:I have always maintained voting should be a privilege for TAX payers only In that case those who pay more taxes should have their votes count for more, more like a shareholding kind off and corporate organizations should also be allowed to vote given they pay more tax, right? So lets assume Royal Media is the highest Tax payer Is Royal Media dependent on Kenyans or are Kenyans dependent on Royal media?If Royal media closed, Kenya as a Sovereign Nation would go on,and its people would continue determining their destiny(voting) When it comes to Nationhood that argument is flawed Africa belongs to Africans.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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Tokyo wrote:I have always maintained voting should be a privilege for TAX payers only The west (UK, USA etc) grew prosperous and strong because for many many years voting was restricted and only property owners could vote. Therefore you vote what is best for your "property" and its prosperity. It is absurd to give industrialist Kirubi and a guy in kibera (or an 18yr old boy fresh from school) equal say when voting. Because while Kirubi would be voting on what is best for growth of his businesses and the economy at large, the poor guy will be voting for someone who will take from kirubi and give the cash to him.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,274 Location: Kenya
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Today you guys are speaking a lot of sense... Kudos kina @hardwood and @tokyo and others... I wanted to type that yesterday but I deleted the post... I feared the usual stone throwing from the many learned pple here who have lost sense of education and become sycophants of the system...
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