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Friday 27th is therefore my leave day!!!!!!!
Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/25/2012 Posts: 1,826
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masukuma wrote:by the way... what is the point of a "language"? it's to communicate - right? for better or for worse we have english spoken more widely... is knowledge of english an asset? Do you see a future where a person in Kenya will not know how to speak english? if a language's primary reason of being is communication - why not embrace a widely spoken one? our children will learn these things... they will look around and pick a predominant language upende usipende! kinda like I did myself... Kikuyu is the language my mum and dad spoke to me in the evening.... as soon as I stepped out of that door I met all manner of people... in our plot and in school and church.... for 8-10 hours i was immersed in swahili/sheng and in the evening again.... kikuyu for like 4hours or less. My brother and I spoke swahili to each other and answered back in swahili! the only time i felt lack of knowing kikuyu was a problem was when I travelled to shags... my kids will not travel to that "shags" they will travel to Nakuru town as their shags or Mombasa as their shags - they will not feel the need to speak that language. most of us have travelled long distances from where we were born originally and look around... this will be shags for your grandchildren.... apartments and gated communities. someone will call donholm shags! this is of course assuming that they will care to travel to shags! most are confusing language for culture, but even for culture whats the need of it, if all it does is to create divisions. If aping another culture will unite us then that would be better. I am sure English in its current form was not the original language of the early Britons.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
most are confusing language for culture, but even for culture whats the need of it, if all it does is to create divisions. If aping another culture will unite us then that would be better. I am sure English in its current form was not the original language of the early Britons.
nah.. english as it is now is very different from the english of 100 years ago. or even 500 years ago. but english underwent radical changes during the time that the anglo saxons were under the norman (french) invasion. Early britons were the celtic tribes (think scottish, welsh and others who have been killed off or assimilated). "english" was more germanic before (check out old english) and has been reformed over and over. the anglo-saxons brought it from the european mainland and slowly by slowly it picked words from different cultures. no one says "peradventure" anymore or counts ages in "scores". people think of it as 'aping' and it's not! it's doing what humans do best... deciding between 2 things - based on practicality! By the way culture is more subtle not like traditions (the Mardi grases and Halloweens , lamu ceremonies , kurashia or circumcision ceremonies). Culture is more subtle - you only get to know it when immersed in another one.  All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/6/2008 Posts: 3,548
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So if i take the constitutional position on culture i am making a mistake, no! this one was done under the weight of Kenyan philosophy, this is better than science, or any attempts to argue "logically", these philosophers, they were looking into the future not backwards,better invest and promote the old old culture in this modern setting, see what you'll loose, if you can speak 4 languages the better, but it's better to add jaluo, kalenjin etc as the extra language than japanese, chinese, e.t.c where you would all be but a tourist if you are a successful person, in any case our very good Kenyan english is enough, but if you add luo, you can attend a gor mahia game and gather useful intel.... A New Kenya
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 7/23/2012 Posts: 32
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/7/2007 Posts: 838
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This is simply amazing. Equating spoken language to being backward. You can make an interesting study @hamburglar. I wonder whether the Irish who speak Celtic are called backward by their own people because English is more widely spoken there. Or the Swedish who don't speak English being taken as more learned. Hahaha...I feel you have never left your cocoon to realise how rich African culture really is. You simply have never been exposed to true culture. WHO DARES WINS
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/7/2007 Posts: 838
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masukuma wrote:marko wrote:masukuma wrote:murchr wrote:As the Wahenga said, muacha mila ni mtumwa.
I would have loved to have some of these wahengas showing up over here!! the y would be shocked! somehow we tend to think of these wahangas as all wise people kumbe they were fishermen who never travelled 200kms away from their homes. Maybe back then it was useful to have a cultural identity.... right now? it's as useful as fresh breath is to a telephone operator. @Masukuma. Most of the modern day wahengas I am sure you revere, the Machiavelli's, Plato's, Socrates, Da Vincis, Newtons etc etc never travelled more than 200 kms out of their villages. these are not modern wahengas... they would still be collecting jaws from the floor if they came here NOW not even gone to Europe or America. The youngest of these people lived 300 years ago - way before the Kikuyus settled around Mt Kenya. Some of these wahengas are so old that our wahengas are even younger!! The fallacy we have is that there was a golden age in some era passed!! THIS IS THE GOLDEN AGE!! Don't live a modern life looking behind... there is nothing but ignorance and brutishness there and the occasional nugget that makes us romanticize the ages gone by. Everything you use and do now..including those computers came from those 300 year old men. WHO DARES WINS
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/7/2007 Posts: 838
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Anti_Burglar wrote:marko wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Marko, if you think culture, democracy and politics are properly compartmentalized in this country you need to go back to sleep. I wish you sweet dreams. Why don't you present your argument? You have practically said nothing there. You remind me of those days people used to post full-stops and the word ditto just to get more post numbers on the record. I'm sorry you have missed it. I wish I spoke someone who was awake. I regret my wasted post. Still not saying much I am afraid. WHO DARES WINS
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/7/2007 Posts: 838
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Swenani wrote:marko wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:Marko, if you think culture, democracy and politics are properly compartmentalized in this country you need to go back to sleep. I wish you sweet dreams. Why don't you present your argument? You have practically said nothing there. You remind me of those days people used to post full-stops and the word ditto just to get more post numbers on the record. Ditto  .  WHO DARES WINS
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/5/2010 Posts: 2,459
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@masukuma, siku hizi you are on fire. If you are not teaching at a university, it's a great shame.
People are arguing as if culture = old traditions. As if culture is static. But culture is simply the way of life of a people at a particular point in time. I always smile anytime I hear someone talking of a non-existent concept like kikuyu culture. Now can anyone honestly claim there is any homogeneity between the way of life of Njenga Karume's family and that of Philip Ndegwa ? They are both kikuyus in the same class. Now throw in a poor family in Ndudori.
Their values, language, worldview, practices, standpoint on issues confronting them is so different that you cannot lump them together as a homogeneous group bound by culture.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/7/2007 Posts: 838
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Even the Pope in his address at the mass at UON asked the youth to use their strong African traditions as a guide in their life.. WHO DARES WINS
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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FRM2011 wrote:@masukuma, siku hizi you are on fire. If you are not teaching at a university, it's a great shame.
People are arguing as if culture = old traditions. As if culture is static. But culture is simply the way of life of a people at a particular point in time. I always smile anytime I hear someone talking of a non-existent concept like kikuyu culture. Now can anyone honestly claim there is any homogeneity between the way of life of Njenga Karume's family and that of Philip Ndegwa ? They are both kikuyus in the same class. Now throw in a poor family in Ndudori.
Their values, language, worldview, practices, standpoint on issues confronting them is so different that you cannot lump them together as a homogeneous group bound by culture. You are confusing lifestyle with culture. Yes there is a kikuyu culture. A culture is a way of life of a group of people, in this case the kikuyu, their traditions, beliefs, values, behavior, norms, that they accept, and that are passed along from one generation to the next. And yes there's homogeneity between the karume/ndegwa families and the ndudori poor family when it comes to culture. They may enjoy different lifestyles due to different incomes/upbringing but they will all follow certain cultural norms and traditions as kikuyus. Culture is deeper than lifestyle, and culture includes the language the tribe speaks.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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marko wrote:
Everything you use and do now..including those computers came from those 300 year old men.
Oh yeah! Don't confuse my urge to make people move forward to ingratitude to great men in the eras gone by. Newtonian physics really helped explain the universe for a couple of hundreds of years. Da Vinci was a 1st class polymath and if I could be half the man he was in this century it would be great. We have Pythagoras and the rest to thank for certain worldviews and explanations that made us move forward HOWEVER they were groundbreakers during their life times. Galileo was forced to recant the statement that the statement that the earth went around the sun by traditionalists. Who is the ground breaker during this period? who is helping us move forward into the future? I have always argued just like in previous centuries the persons who will enable us know the known unknowns will not be a traditionalist!  you need to stand on the shoulders of giants and not worship the giants! Our fixation with the greats is what is impeding development since we have a notion that there is something groundbreaking in our past. Here are the facts... people abandon inferior things for superior things - thats how it works! so if there are good things in the african cultural heritage they will move forward into the future, if there is something inferior IT WILL DIE! be it African, Chinese or even Swedish ... repeat after me IT WILL DIE!! I don't personally think learning a language makes you backwards I just think the effort is better spent elsewhere. In my line of work knowing french doubles my reach and income knowing spanish triples it! knowing kikuyu or luo? unless it's for intellectual curiosity which I have lots of it - it is not useful. ps. the constitution was written by men... men undergoing the same experiences you are it does not mean that it's right (as in the way a mathematical concept is) - it just tries to define a worldview. The pope is also in the same boat! I am in the same boat! my point is DON'T GET VALIDATION TO STAY BEHIND FROM ELSEWHERE - DO WHAT IS PRACTICAL! DO WHAT IS UTILITARIAN! DO WHAT IS USEFUL TO YOU! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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hardwood wrote:
You are confusing lifestyle with culture. Yes there is a kikuyu culture. A culture is a way of life of a group of people, in this case the kikuyu, their traditions, beliefs, values, behavior, norms, that they accept, and that are passed along from one generation to the next. And yes there's homogeneity between the karume/ndegwa families and the ndudori poor family when it comes to culture. They may enjoy different lifestyles due to different incomes/upbringing but they will all follow certain cultural norms and traditions as kikuyus. Culture is deeper than lifestyle, and culture includes the language the tribe speaks.
There is an identity - where someone identifies themselves as something. I am Kikuyu. There is culture - the rich mix of things that I was taught by my environment for example - how to treat women, the roles, how to respond to things e.t.c. basically something like this: Language and traditions and religion are the more visible aspects of culture - the ones that shout but such things as not staring at strangers or looking at people directly into the eyes e.t.c. are the larger aspect of culture. I think culture changes watu wapende wasipende when people meet others. it has to! while you may keep the visible and sometimes superficial aspects of your culture such as festivals the undercurrent that really defines how you as an organism understands and makes sense of the world around and formats your response to stimuli in your environment changes. That is why I think there is no such thing as 'Kikuyu Culture' - we have Kikuyu traditions but not Kikuyu culture in the broader sense of the word. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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marko wrote:This is simply amazing. Equating spoken language to being backward. You can make an interesting study @hamburglar. I wonder whether the Irish who speak Celtic are called backward by their own people because English is more widely spoken there. Or the Swedish who don't speak English being taken as more learned. Hahaha...I feel you have never left your cocoon to realise how rich African culture really is. You simply have never been exposed to true culture. I turned out fine without being exposed to that "true" culture you are talking about so no regrets here. You guys can keep your culture for all i care. It serves no purpose in my life. Your mother tongues and cultures have absolutely no value in my life. None at all so i won't waste a minute of my life learning a mother tongue and a culture that does nothing for me. How is knowing about akina wangu wa makeri or lwanda magere going to help me seal a business deal with foreign investors? Am a practical person, life is black and white to me, if something adds value to me then i embrace it, if it doesn't then it useless. It's really that simple. My approach might be a little selfish but i make no apologies, life is what you make it and it's too short to start learning useless languages and cultures that will never make a difference in my life. I would rather watch paint dry, than learn about useless "true" culture.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 7/23/2012 Posts: 32
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Hold up. Dude, are you trying to insuniate that equity is a Kikuyu bank? That Stanchart and Barclays fired Kikuyus and they went to found Equity? This is unbelievable. You are what is wrong with Kenya. I am not trying to fit in with anybody or anything, i am simply doing things that add value to my life. If that is called "fitting in" in your world, it's called reality in mine.
And for the record, i never ever think of my tribe ever. Sometimes i even forget there are tribes in Kenya because everybody that i associate with speaks a language that everybody else understands. English or Swahili. If somebody switches to mother tongue then i drop them like a bad habit. Mother tongue is only important to closet tribalists.
Yes. There are plenty of things that will always divide us as a people. It's our duty to change the things that we can change for the better. We can't get rid of race and nationalities, but we can at least get rid of detrimental things like mother tongues, clans and religions and try to make this world that much better. Nobody says that the world is perfect but if we can move away from some things that you and i have agreed that divide us as a people, then let's do it. That would be a good first step, we will work on the other things later. [/quote]
From your comment above, the queen of england must be a closet tribalist since she uses her mother tongue
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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taka jua wrote:
From your comment above, the queen of england must be a closet tribalist since she uses her mother tongue
Why do you people have to make references to other people? what's with the name dropping? HECK!! even the queen does not speak 'queens english' these days - EVEN SHE IS CHANGING!! TUWACHE UJINGA! All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/4/2015 Posts: 604
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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I am watching the Pope at St Mary's and he has begged to address the meeting in his mother tongue spanish because his english is very poor.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 8/25/2012 Posts: 1,826
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hardwood wrote:I am watching the Pope at St Mary's and he has begged to address the meeting in his mother tongue spanish because his english is very poor. The pope's mother tongue is Italian, parents were Italian immigrants, Spanish is the language the country he was raised in happened to be popular.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/28/2015 Posts: 9,562 Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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sitaki.kujulikana wrote:hardwood wrote:I am watching the Pope at St Mary's and he has begged to address the meeting in his mother tongue spanish because his english is very poor. The pope's mother tongue is Italian, parents were Italian immigrants, Spanish is the language the country he was raised in happened to be popular. I just quoted what he said verbatim ...that he "would use his mother-tongue spanish".
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