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Where is God in all these?
Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2010 Posts: 625
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limanika wrote:Let there not be too much discussion, all have read / heard the Gospel, and everyone is free to make his/her decision. If you have heard the Gospel and decided it is not true and there is no after life, this is your decision we will respect you, kindly also respect those who choose to believe.
Revelation 22:11
Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy."
Back to the issue. Question: "Does God allow evil?"
Answer: The Bible describes God as holy (Isaiah 6:3), righteous (Psalm 7:11), just (Deuteronomy 32:4), and sovereign (Daniel 4:17-25). These attributes tell us the following about God: (1) God is capable of preventing evil, and (2) God desires to rid the universe of evil. So, if both of these are true, why does God allow evil? If God has the power to prevent evil and desires to prevent evil, why does He still allow evil? Perhaps a practical way to look at this question would be to consider some alternative ways people might have God run the world:
1) God could change everyone’s personality so that they cannot sin. This would also mean that we would not have a free will. We would not be able to choose right or wrong because we would be “programmed” to only do right. Had God chosen to do this, there would be no meaningful relationships between Him and His creation.
Instead, God made Adam and Eve innocent but with the ability to choose good or evil. Because of this, they could respond to His love and trust Him or choose to disobey. They chose to disobey. Because we live in a real world where we can choose our actions but not their consequences, their sin affected those who came after them (us). Similarly, our decisions to sin have an impact on us and those around us and those who will come after us.
2) God could compensate for people’s evil actions through supernatural intervention 100 percent of the time. God would stop a drunk driver from causing an automobile accident. God would stop a lazy construction worker from doing a substandard job on a house that would later cause grief to the homeowners. God would stop a father who is addicted to drugs or alcohol from doing any harm to his wife, children, or extended family. God would stop gunmen from robbing convenience stores. God would stop high school bullies from tormenting the brainy kids. God would stop thieves from shoplifting. And, yes, God would stop terrorists from flying airplanes into buildings.
While this solution sounds attractive, it would lose its attractiveness as soon as God’s intervention infringed on something we wanted to do. We want God to prevent horribly evil actions, but we are willing to let “lesser-evil” actions slide—not realizing that those “lesser-evil” actions are what usually lead to the “greater-evil” actions. Should God only stop actual sexual affairs, or should He also block our access to pornography or end any inappropriate, but not yet sexual, relationships? Should God stop “true” thieves, or should He also stop us from cheating on our taxes? Should God only stop murder, or should He also stop the “lesser-evil” actions done to people that lead them to commit murder? Should God only stop acts of terrorism, or should He also stop the indoctrination that transformed a person into a terrorist?
3) Another choice would be for God to judge and remove those who choose to commit evil acts. The problem with this possibility is that there would be no one left, for God would have to remove us all. We all sin and commit evil acts (Romans 3:23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8). While some people are more evil than others, where would God draw the line? Ultimately, all evil causes harm to others.
Instead of these options, God has chosen to create a “real” world in which real choices have real consequences. In this real world of ours, our actions affect others. Because of Adam’s choice to sin, the world now lives under the curse, and we are all born with a sin nature (Romans 5:12). There will one day come a time when God will judge the sin in this world and make all things new, but He is purposely “delaying” in order to allow more time for people to repent so that He will not need to condemn them (2 Peter 3:9). Until then, He IS concerned about evil. When He created the Old Testament laws, the goal was to discourage and punish evil. He judges nations and rulers who disregard justice and pursue evil. Likewise, in the New Testament, God states that it is the government’s responsibility to provide justice in order to protect the innocent from evil (Romans 13). He also promises severe consequences for those who commit evil acts, especially against the "innocent" (Mark 9:36-42). In the case of Garissa, intelligence was available on impending attack, however, people in authority could have foiled the attack, but failed either through omissions / commission. Should we blame God for the consequences if someone in authority makes a conscious decision to be negligent? That said, there are some mysteries we will not know answers in the present life, just like we did not know when we were being born or we don't know when the curtain will fall. Even the Lord Jesus does not know the time of His second coming, this is a secret only the Father knows
Some verses to ponder:
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Daniel 12:10
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand
Ecclesiastes 12:13
Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.
Matthew 3:2
"Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near."
Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
Courtesy www.
this proves and demonstrates my earlier point: 6. Repetition - if at first you don't believe, repeat ad infinitum. Take the kids to Sunday Schools or madrassas where all they do is cram and recite word for word things which they don't necessarily understand. Reward them for remembering word for word. Eventually the crammed recitals becomes the only reference book. And if you enter into a logical argument with someone who has gone through this process, they will be unable to think outside what they have been cramming. Can't function outside the box.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Alienation and madness have blinded us. This is a greater evil than a volcanic eruption.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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Limanika. I also have some bible verses for you to ponder. Enjoy.
On Punishing ‘Immorality’
Leviticus 20:9
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-1 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house.
Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
On Destroying Other People
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations . . . then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
20:10-17 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. . . . This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.
However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you.
On the Evil of Biblical Law
Ezekiel 20:25-26 I also gave them over to statutes that were not good and laws they could not live by; I let them become defiled through their gifts—the sacrifice of every firstborn—that I might fill them with horror so they would know that I am the LORD.
On Slavery & Subjugation of Women
Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Exodus 21:20-21 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men.
2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
Leviticus 25:44-45
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
Jesus, on His Second Coming
Matthew 24:29-34
[T]he sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. . . . They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. . . . I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. [Emphasis added.]
16:27-28
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
Scientific Errors
(1) Rabbits don’t chew cud.
Deuteronomy 14:6-7
You may eat any animal that has a split hoof divided in two and that chews the cud. However, of those that chew the cud or that have a split hoof completely divided you may not eat the camel, the rabbit, or the coney.
(2) No insects (including grasshoppers) are 4-legged.
Leviticus 11:20-22
All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper.
(3) This is only possible on a flat earth.
Matthew 4:8
Again the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
(4) pi does not = 3.
1 Kings 7:23
He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim . . . It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.
(5) The earth moves. It does not have a foundation.
Psalms 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
Selected Contradictions
(1)
2 Kings 2:11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
(2)
Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Exodus 32:14 Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
(3)
Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith . . . not by works.
James 2:14-17 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? . . . Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
(4) (Jesus speaking)
Matthew 5:16 Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your father in heaven.
Matthew 6:1 Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them.
(5) (Jesus speaking)
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you.
Matthew 10:34 Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
(6)
Genesis 32:30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and my life was preserved.”
Exodus 33:11 The Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God.
(7) (Jesus speaking)
John 5:31 If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.
John 8:14 Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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I will post some more verses from your "holy" book later when i find some time. 
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/27/2010 Posts: 266 Location: Nairobi
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hamburglar wrote:I will post some more verses from your "holy" book later when i find some time. Keep 'em rolling @Hamburglar. Now I see where the likes of ISIS are getting their blood-thirsty streak from. And little wonder the libidinous Boko Haram are busy ravishing those Chibok girls (Most of the released girls are pregnant). Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 ) "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/9/2006 Posts: 1,502
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.as they say... religion is a creation of man ( not woman) work to prosper
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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hamburglar wrote:I will post some more verses from your "holy" book later when i find some time. It had better be the Qur'an! Unless you are a chicken.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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The Bible is true and authentic word of God. It is about God reestablishing relationship with man. It is an all time best seller, has been subject of scholarly study throughout the ages, and is as valid, fresh and practical today as it was 2000yrs ago. Science, on the other hand, is about man trying to discover God's creation. Indeed man has been incredibly slow (and still is) trying to understand God's creation, if you consider that basis of current advances in technology only date back some 100-200 yrs back, yet man was given domion over the earth at creation but to date there's so much about God's creation we still don't know. It therefore follows that you cannot use science to understand God, but the converse is true. The virgin birth, for example, is impossible scientifically. A certain scholar said that if in your wisdom you find that the Bible is contradictory and untrue, then it means perhaps you are setting yourself as the standard of truth and all understanding. All in all God has given us free will to make our own decisions. However, the consequences of the choices we make, including their influence (or lack thereof if you like) on what happens after the curtain falls, is not under your control. Also note it is not possible in present life to fully understand God and all His ways. He created Time and space and transcends both. Man, on the other hand, operates within space-time hence the limitation. However, God has made possible our understanding of Him to the point necessary for our current exisistence
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2010 Posts: 625
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limanika wrote:The Bible is true and authentic word of God. It is about God reestablishing relationship with man. It is an all time best seller, has been subject of scholarly study throughout the ages, and is as valid, fresh and practical today as it was 2000yrs ago. Science, on the other hand, is about man trying to discover God's creation. Indeed man has been incredibly slow (and still is) trying to understand God's creation, if you consider that basis of current advances in technology only date back some 100-200 yrs back, yet man was given domion over the earth at creation but to date there's so much about God's creation we still don't know. It therefore follows that you cannot use science to understand God, but the converse is true. The virgin birth, for example, is impossible scientifically. A certain scholar said that if in your wisdom you find that the Bible is contradictory and untrue, then it means perhaps you are setting yourself as the standard of truth and all understanding. All in all God has given us free will to make our own decisions. However, the consequences of the choices we make, including their influence (or lack thereof if you like) on what happens after the curtain falls, is not under your control. Also note it is not possible in present life to fully understand God and all His ways. He created Time and space and transcends both. Man, on the other hand, operates within space-time hence the limitation. However, God has made possible our understanding of Him to the point necessary for our current exisistence Muslims and other religious people with books would also make the exact same argument and also have proof. Africans should be no 1 skeptics but they tend to be no 1 believers of foreign religions. Only 150 years ago no one would have believed this bible stuff that most Kenyans now quote as if it was fact based. If the Europeans and Arabs didn't come here to conquer us, we would still be believing our own theories that worked for us for thousands of years. The bible is a Jewish story put down on paper, same for the Koran being an Arab book. Africans don't feature in these texts. We used to have our own stories where we were the chosen people (main actors) but we lost the war against the invaders. Now we have to put up with being asides and guest actors. Not saying that our stories were fact based either. Low IQ is tied to not questioning what you are told and accepting things on face value.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/9/2006 Posts: 1,502
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@mv-ufanisi. What an elaborate summary regarding this imported religions. work to prosper
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Y'all 'pro-Africans', have you participated in this discussion?What is your sentiment towards certain African paradigms (as illustrated above) vis-a-vis certain non-African paradigms e.g. 'robust individualism'?
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/22/2015 Posts: 682
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@ mv_ufanisi that is one of the most unfortunate things, the way Africans have lapped up Israeli religious culture. I wish some Africans can be taken to Israel to see what those guys think of black people. Here is a preview: https://youtu.be/dPxv4Aff3IA
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/17/2012 Posts: 1,461 Location: Ngong Forest
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[quote=Mike Ock]@ mv_ufanisi that is one of the most unfortunate things, the way Africans have lapped up Israeli religious culture. I wish some Africans can be taken to Israel to see what those guys think of black people. Here is a preview: https://youtu.be/dPxv4Aff3IA[/quote] I saw a documentally about hajji and how black muslims are treated ,then l realized some rumors about black people being created for slavery purposes might be true! NKT
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2010 Posts: 625
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Ngong wrote:[quote=Mike Ock]@ mv_ufanisi that is one of the most unfortunate things, the way Africans have lapped up Israeli religious culture. I wish some Africans can be taken to Israel to see what those guys think of black people. Here is a preview: https://youtu.be/dPxv4Aff3IA[/quote] I saw a documentally about hajji and how black muslims are treated ,then l realized some rumors about black people being created for slavery purposes might be true! NKT Of course the ultra religious guys here in Kenya will not inform their congregations that they are unwanted in Israel or in those white evangelical churches in the United States which they watch on TV and will be mistreated in the Middle East because they are Africans. Religion seems to matter little in these matters. Some brainwashed Africans are drowning on the way to Europe while the Portuguese are heading back to Angola and Mozambique in search of opportunity.
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/14/2011 Posts: 661
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Some answers from Don Moen & Lenny Leblanc… now on KTN
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/27/2010 Posts: 266 Location: Nairobi
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[quote=Mike Ock]@ mv_ufanisi that is one of the most unfortunate things, the way Africans have lapped up Israeli religious culture. I wish some Africans can be taken to Israel to see what those guys think of black people. Here is a preview: https://youtu.be/dPxv4Aff3IA[/quote] Very shocking Video. And why is it that the Bible Belt is one of the most racist regions in the US? I also ask myself why those Africans from Muslim countries are crossing the Mediterranean to Europe and not Saudi Arabia. Makes me wonder whether those Jews, Arabs & White Supremacists will gladly live side by side with their African Brethren in "Heaven".
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/27/2014 Posts: 560 Location: Eastlando
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Caramba wrote:[quote=Mike Ock]@ mv_ufanisi that is one of the most unfortunate things, the way Africans have lapped up Israeli religious culture. I wish some Africans can be taken to Israel to see what those guys think of black people. Here is a preview: https://youtu.be/dPxv4Aff3IA[/quote] Very shocking Video. And why is it that the Bible Belt is one of the most racist regions in the US? I also ask myself why those Africans from Muslim countries are crossing the Mediterranean to Europe and not Saudi Arabia. Makes me wonder whether those Jews, Arabs & White Supremacists will gladly live side by side with their African Brethren in "Heaven". Thou shall not criticise a white man
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Caramba wrote:[quote=Mike Ock]@ mv_ufanisi that is one of the most unfortunate things, the way Africans have lapped up Israeli religious culture. I wish some Africans can be taken to Israel to see what those guys think of black people. Here is a preview: https://youtu.be/dPxv4Aff3IA[/quote] Very shocking Video. And why is it that the Bible Belt is one of the most racist regions in the US? I also ask myself why those Africans from Muslim countries are crossing the Mediterranean to Europe and not Saudi Arabia. Makes me wonder whether those Jews, Arabs & White Supremacists will gladly live side by side with their African Brethren in "Heaven". You are over-looking the undercurrents to your disadvantage. Europe has a void that needs to be filled. Islam, from Saudi Arabia, is filling that void - through immigrants. Europe is in the process of abandoning its historical counter weight to Islam without a modern replacement and the growing numbers of Muslims and spread of Islam in Europe is undeniable, unless one's head is in the sands. Humanism is a paper tiger that flutters and quakes at the name of Mohammed (PBUH). I look forward, not necessarily with joy, to the day Europe will be majority Muslim. It will be.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2010 Posts: 625
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Thiong'o wrote:Some answers from Don Moen & Lenny Leblanc… now on KTN Warren Buffett says "don't ask a barber if you need a haircut"
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2010 Posts: 625
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The funny thing is that despite my gripes with religion, I still realize the role that religion plays in society. The problem is that we still don't have a solid alternative that can appease the masses.
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