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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/25/2007 Posts: 1,574
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seppuku wrote:jaggernaut wrote:simonkabz wrote:That new title is even more misleading. Political correctness? Should revert to the old title since the new one is a confused title that doesn't reflect the content of the thread. Seconded. What was wrong with the original title? How many times (third time now) is the title of this thread going to change!?  Changing it from the first original title effectively killed this very enlightening discussion.  Set out to correct the world's wrongs and you will most certainly wind up adding to them.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 121 Location: Nairobi
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jguru wrote:seppuku wrote:jaggernaut wrote:simonkabz wrote:That new title is even more misleading. Political correctness? Should revert to the old title since the new one is a confused title that doesn't reflect the content of the thread. Seconded. What was wrong with the original title? How many times (third time now) is the title of this thread going to change!? Changing it from the first original title effectively killed this very enlightening discussion.  Okay....back to the original On Christ Alone
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 121 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:I wonder how many think in their vernacular languages. And once we can begin to teleport easily, language will shrink to computer language. Teaching the young vernacular would be equal to preparing them to live in Museums. Or rather, to be components of the 'intelligent museum'. There are those who posit that language changes with the growth of children. I think they are right. Children of the technocity will have no time for 'ibuku'. Once intelligence gets into anything, its name changes. That's why and how children transform language. We are heading to the crown, not roots.I agree; but what is the crown? Today, if alliance starts teaching its children finnish, people will say yeahhh! National school indeed. Yet, if it starts teaching Kikuyu, people will say...  And yet, the number of people speaking finnish is 5Million only..and they use this language to university level On Christ Alone
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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mukiha wrote:tycho wrote:I wonder how many think in their vernacular languages. And once we can begin to teleport easily, language will shrink to computer language.
Teaching the young vernacular would be equal to preparing them to live in Museums. Or rather, to be components of the 'intelligent museum'.
There are those who posit that language changes with the growth of children. I think they are right. Children of the technocity will have no time for 'ibuku'. Once intelligence gets into anything, its name changes. That's why and how children transform language.
We are heading to the crown, not roots.
Should we then teach them the digital language of zeroes and ones? There'll be no more 'teaching'. Right action is advancing in technology to make live relations the teacher, the student and the becoming. The more we stop teaching, the better we'll become.
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 121 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:I wonder how many think in their vernacular languages. And once we can begin to teleport easily, language will shrink to computer language.
Teaching the young vernacular would be equal to preparing them to live in Museums. Or rather, to be components of the 'intelligent museum'.
There are those who posit that language changes with the growth of children. I think they are right. Children of the technocity will have no time for 'ibuku'. Once intelligence gets into anything, its name changes. That's why and how children transform language.
We are heading to the crown, not roots.
I agree; but what is the crown? Today, if alliance starts teaching its children finnish, people will say yeahhh! National school indeed. Yet, if it starts teaching Kikuyu, people will say... And yet, the number of people speaking finnish is 5Million only..and they use this language to university level On Christ Alone
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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nesta wrote:tycho wrote:I wonder how many think in their vernacular languages. And once we can begin to teleport easily, language will shrink to computer language. Teaching the young vernacular would be equal to preparing them to live in Museums. Or rather, to be components of the 'intelligent museum'. There are those who posit that language changes with the growth of children. I think they are right. Children of the technocity will have no time for 'ibuku'. Once intelligence gets into anything, its name changes. That's why and how children transform language. We are heading to the crown, not roots.I agree; but what is the crown? Today, if alliance starts teaching its children finnish, people will say yeahhh! National school indeed. Yet, if it starts teaching Kikuyu, people will say... And yet, the number of people speaking finnish is 5Million only..and they use this language to university level The crown? Man God.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/7/2010 Posts: 728 Location: Wazuaville
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mukiha wrote:tycho wrote:I wonder how many think in their vernacular languages. And once we can begin to teleport easily, language will shrink to computer language.
Teaching the young vernacular would be equal to preparing them to live in Museums. Or rather, to be components of the 'intelligent museum'.
There are those who posit that language changes with the growth of children. I think they are right. Children of the technocity will have no time for 'ibuku'. Once intelligence gets into anything, its name changes. That's why and how children transform language.
We are heading to the crown, not roots.
Should we then teach them the digital language of zeroes and ones? @Mukiha, yap that is the future; computer language is a language like any other. that's the future we want class one kids to string programs to solve simple things in their lives and design animated cartoons to tell their story then have composition in KCPE where they are asked to design an anime story board about the most memorable day in their lives alama ya dukuduku @tycho. why do you think technology cannot be done in Kenyan languages. We can a Tharaka browse ngoogu (google) or Gikuyu macaria (search) engine. Any language can interact with technology, there's nothing special with English. the anglo-saxons realized this some time back and translated complex philosophies and scientific concepts from Greek and Latin to English. During the Victorian and Elizabethan age Latin was the langugae of scholars and intellectuals; the elite frowned on Shakespeare's street language (sheng) "Money never sleeps"
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/25/2007 Posts: 1,574
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I have a question. If Gikuyu was derived from Kamba, how then is it that a person who speaks in the tongue cannot easily comprehend a conversation in Kamba, yet that person can comprehend a conversation in other Bantu languages (Meru, Embu, Kisii, Buganda, Kinyarwanda etc)? German, Afrikaans, Dutch and English have similarities because they belong to the same language family. Set out to correct the world's wrongs and you will most certainly wind up adding to them.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Money Whisperer wrote:@Wakanyugi, using your own example Kirinyaga/Keenyaa to apply the consonant drift theory, I find that is is the opposite of what you are stating. To me Kamba is a later dialect derived from Gikuyu. How now? let me explain. consonant drift means as you correctly state that pronunciation moves to easier forms; the easier forms are those with less consonants. consonants are harder to pronounce than vowels infact a child in first language acquisition begins with vowels then consonants follow so it follows that between Kirinyaga and Kenyaa that the Kamba did away with the consonants in Kirinyaga. For example a wazua derivative drifts from McReggae to Mareggae, get the drift?
On Gikuyu/Kamba relations, the Gikuyu myth explains the Kamba as athoni (in-laws) through Wamuyu the ninth daughter of Gikuyu Good example - Kirinyaga/Kenyaa - but I think you have answered your own question. First to debunk a common error that the name of our country is derived from Gikuyu. It actually comes from the Kamba language, they were the people who named Mt Kenyaa.Now to consonant drift simplified: as you have noted, 'over time, people tend towards the easiest format of speech possible by dropping 'hard' sounds for softer ones. In other words, to borrow your metaphor, they tend to speak like children. Kirinyaga becomes Kenyaa, 'r' becomes 'l', 'd' becomes 't' etc. This drift happens over many generations, unless external factors intervene. The fewer the 'hard' sounds that remain in a language or dialect, the more consonant drift it has undergone. Therefore that language is considered older. Some factors can interfere with this process (eg writing, external enforcement, influence of other languages etc) but we can ignore these factors here. Kikamba has much fewer 'hard' sounds than Gikuyu and the derivation - as in Kirinyaga/Kenyaa is very easy to show. Gikuyu is therefore a dialect of Kikamba, not the other way round. The main reason people would find it hard to accept this fact is largely political, not scientific. Remember the saying " Language is a dialect with an army." If the Kamba people had inherited the political power that the Gikuyu did, this argument would be moot. And this is just the linguistic evidence. The anthropological as in the example you have given is even more convincing. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Money Whisperer wrote:mukiha wrote:tycho wrote:I wonder how many think in their vernacular languages. And once we can begin to teleport easily, language will shrink to computer language.
Teaching the young vernacular would be equal to preparing them to live in Museums. Or rather, to be components of the 'intelligent museum'.
There are those who posit that language changes with the growth of children. I think they are right. Children of the technocity will have no time for 'ibuku'. Once intelligence gets into anything, its name changes. That's why and how children transform language.
We are heading to the crown, not roots.
Should we then teach them the digital language of zeroes and ones? @Mukiha, yap that is the future; computer language is a language like any other. that's the future we want class one kids to string programs to solve simple things in their lives and design animated cartoons to tell their story then have composition in KCPE where they are asked to design an anime story board about the most memorable day in their lives alama ya dukuduku @tycho. why do you think technology cannot be done in Kenyan languages. We can a Tharaka browse ngoogu (google) or Gikuyu macaria (search) engine. Any language can interact with technology, there's nothing special with English. the anglo-saxons realized this some time back and translated complex philosophies and scientific concepts from Greek and Latin to English. During the Victorian and Elizabethan age Latin was the langugae of scholars and intellectuals; the elite frowned on Shakespeare's street language (sheng) The British were making an empire that was 'Universalist'. But such an 'empire' is no longer tenable. We are in a multiversal multiplane. The Kenyan dimension itself is multifaceted; the person in Embu is working and even interacting with me on some place in 'cyberspace' a world that has everything we need. . . with a name of its own. There'll be no dictionaries. Words like 'Kenya', 'England' will be changed to names we can't determine now.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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seppuku wrote:
The 'e' and 'o', would they really make more sense than the 'í' and 'ú'? I think not. Consider a word like ríene i.e. belonging to some one else. E.g. Ibuku ríene. Writing that as ibuku reene would completely mess up the proper Kikuyu pronunciation. Excuse the fact that I use the acute diacritic on the í's and ú's instead of tildes because I can't figure out how to type tilde-d characters on my keyboard.
I think the idea was to simplify typing Gikuyu. being as we are the only ones who have retained the Cyrillic 'ũ' and 'ĩ' letters in this region. But the potential problem you have noted is valid too. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 121 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:
The crown? Man God.
What? How do you determine what is a crown and what is a root? Has it ever occurred to you that shifting to english was going back to the roots after climbing down from the crown? On Christ Alone
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/7/2010 Posts: 728 Location: Wazuaville
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Wakanyugi wrote:Money Whisperer wrote:@Wakanyugi, using your own example Kirinyaga/Keenyaa to apply the consonant drift theory, I find that is is the opposite of what you are stating. To me Kamba is a later dialect derived from Gikuyu. How now? let me explain. consonant drift means as you correctly state that pronunciation moves to easier forms; the easier forms are those with less consonants. consonants are harder to pronounce than vowels infact a child in first language acquisition begins with vowels then consonants follow so it follows that between Kirinyaga and Kenyaa that the Kamba did away with the consonants in Kirinyaga. For example a wazua derivative drifts from McReggae to Mareggae, get the drift?
On Gikuyu/Kamba relations, the Gikuyu myth explains the Kamba as athoni (in-laws) through Wamuyu the ninth daughter of Gikuyu Good example - Kirinyaga/Kenyaa - but I think you have answered your own question. First to debunk a common error that the name of our country is derived from Gikuyu. It actually comes from the Kamba language, they were the people who named Mt Kenyaa.Now to consonant drift simplified: as you have noted, 'over time, people tend towards the easiest format of speech possible by dropping 'hard' sounds for softer ones. In other words, to borrow your metaphor, they tend to speak like children. Kirinyaga becomes Kenyaa, 'r' becomes 'l', 'd' becomes 't' etc. This drift happens over many generations, unless external factors intervene. The fewer the 'hard' sounds that remain in a language or dialect, the more consonant drift it has undergone. Therefore that language is considered older. Some factors can interfere with this process (eg writing, external enforcement, influence of other languages etc) but we can ignore these factors here. Kikamba has much fewer 'hard' sounds than Gikuyu and the derivation - as in Kirinyaga/Kenyaa is very easy to show. Gikuyu is therefore a dialect of Kikamba, not the other way round. The main reason people would find it hard to accept this fact is largely political, not scientific. Remember the saying " Language is a dialect with an army." If the Kamba people had inherited the political power that the Gikuyu did, this argument would be moot. And this is just the linguistic evidence. The anthropological as in the example you have given is even more convincing. This is where we part ways. The less the hard sounds in a language the newer it is. Look at sheng as a dialect of Swahili the better a speaker of sheng is the younger he is right? An older guy will say Nilitengeneza gari. a younger person finding the phrase/clause "nilitengeneza" too long and hard replaces it with the English word "make" and say Nilimake (isha) gari yangu"Money never sleeps"
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/17/2012 Posts: 1,461 Location: Ngong Forest
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Kuitwa ng'ombe ni matusi kali sana!
Yani kula nyasi kama ngo'mbe
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/9/2013 Posts: 285 Location: hapakule.
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DEL Whatever the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2012 Posts: 3,855 Location: Othumo
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Kikuyus, Please Come (Here) Kikuyus ... ISORITE #WEAREONE Thieves
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Rank: Hello Joined: 11/27/2013 Posts: 6
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Lolest! wrote:mindigo wrote:Quote:By the way consonant drift provides persuasive proof that Gikuyu is a derivative of Kikamba. In fact the Gikuyu tribe is a recent creation - as recent as 200 years ago - created for 'political' reasons. (Some of the bigots from Nyumba ya Muumbi and elsewhere need to remember this Correct,but that's only a small paragraph in a very LOOOOOOng history involving Nubia,Egypt and the Middle East. Fyi,Kyukes had a writing system as recently as a 100 years ago. As soon as the missionaries arrived it was forgotten. It was hieroglyphic, considered to be a debasement of a true alphabetical script and resembled Ibo nsibidi.  The original kyuke script was called gicandi and its very hard nearly impossible to find. I had saved a sample. Will post it up when I find it. these historians craze with Egyptian links is funny! Every tribe wants to be seen as having come from the north, the Nile region. There are articles claiming the Kalenjin and even the Luo are descendants of ancient Egyptians. There are 2 theories I have bought from historians though: 1. The Abagusii are close relatives of the Mount Kenya tribes, left behind during the migration.(but this might mean the migratory route is different for the Mount Kenya tribes from the conventional one taught in history that passes through the coastal area) 2. The Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi came from Ethiopia....in my first interaction with a Mututsi, I asked them if they're Ethiopian No, ! Just.No. The Euros claimed they were the original Egyptians and still do-look at the History Channel. Those of us happy with that narrative dutifully parrot the colonial inspired standard 3 history about the Cameroonian bantu migration. The purpose of this story is to separate us from Kush/Meroe/Napata/Axum/Nubia/Egypt. Its part of not just our own but AFRICAN HISTORY-read about this Cameroonian people,the Tikar. Quote:The history books declare that Bantus left Cameroon 2000 to 1500 years ago and settled the continent via the Congo Forest. All bantu speakers came from Cameroon-period! There was little if any migrations from the North or East at any time.Therefore ethnic classifications can be conveniently set in stone as the language map shows. A glance at the Tikar people's history of NW Cameroon shows the fallacy of such a viewpoint. http://karanjazplace.blo...ople-show-need-for.html
The history of Africans is wayyyyyy more complicated than Euro written books like to pretend. Here's the gicandi with translation.Where do you think the influence came from?  
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/21/2013 Posts: 2,841 Location: Here
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Am wrote:a4architect.com wrote:Most kikuyu words are similar to xhoha, swahili and rwandese eg Ngombe, kuku, maji.
The interahamwe in rwandese is directly translated to turihamwe in kikuyu, meaning we are together.
The Bostwana/setswana language, a cow is ngombe, meat is nyama, chicken is kuku,water is metsi ,similar to kikuyu.
Haiya. Muru wa maitu. No ukomentaga kinya debate ta ishi??  Life is like playing a violin solo in public and learning the instrument as one goes on.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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nesta wrote:tycho wrote:
The crown? Man God.
What? How do you determine what is a crown and what is a root? Has it ever occurred to you that shifting to english was going back to the roots after climbing down from the crown? Root is what holds the tree to the earth, crown is where birds of the heavens perch. Some say that history isn't just a forward march, and that sometimes backward steps are taken. But still, the crown is beyond dialectic.
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