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Kikuyus, Please Come (Here)
Siringi
#41 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 1:30:10 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
Drobos fly wrote:
@Wakanyuki, it will be worthwhile if you could change the title of this post to "Kenyans please come (here)" and have all communities share their tongue wrenchers/numbing of languages here smile


Yes among the Gikuyu of Nyanza (read Abagusii) the situation is more dire

picture this akina Nyachae do not have the following letters Sad c, f, h, j, l, p, q, v, w, x and zSad Sad

c and h exists only in combined ch form
a few bortowed names have p eg Opanga

am told Ekegusii was written by Luo missionary acolytes wapi @keraka

they could one community with the smallest no of alphabets gaki?
"😖😡KQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder 😏😏 " overheard in Wazua
Drobos fly
#42 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:35:17 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/24/2012
Posts: 331
Location: Vantage point
Siringi wrote:
Drobos fly wrote:
@Wakanyuki, it will be worthwhile if you could change the title of this post to "Kenyans please come (here)" and have all communities share their tongue wrenchers/numbing of languages here smile


Yes among the Gikuyu of Nyanza (read Abagusii) the situation is more dire

picture this akina Nyachae do not have the following letters Sad c, f, h, j, l, p, q, v, w, x and zSad Sad

c and h exists only in combined ch form
a few bortowed names have p eg Opanga

am told Ekegusii was written by Luo missionary acolytes wapi @keraka

they could one community with the smallest no of alphabets gaki?


My bad I was on pg 2 thinking that that is the start of the entire post, I actually meant to address the Original poster who is nesta to change the title of this whole thread to "Kenyans please come (here)" so that other communities can also join in
Wakanyugi
#43 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 3:40:56 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
The Clown wrote:
@ Wakanyungi, sorry but I haven't understood your lengthy post.

The original poster (@nesta) asked: "Who came up with the Kikuyu alphabet?".

That's the question that I responded to and I think that's what this discussion is all about- the Gikuyu alphabet. I didn't see the word 'orthography' anywhere.

I studied the language in primary school and that much is clear in my first post. I'm quite happy to parade my ignorance, thank you.

I speak as a user of Gikuyu while you seem to have more of an academic interest in the tongue. So I can't find an appropriate insult in proto-Bantu, whatever that is.



@The Clown: If I misunderstood you, you have my apologies.

Nevertheless, I speak as a Gikuyu speaker and with some some linguistic training as well. And the points I make about Gikuyu orthography are based on training.

If you believe I am wrong please say where.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#44 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:12:00 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
Zanze wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:



By the way consonant drift provides persuasive proof that Gikuyu is a derivative of Kikamba. In fact the Gikuyu tribe is a recent creation - as recent as 200 years ago - created for 'political' reasons. (Some of the bigots from Nyumba ya Muumbi and elsewhere need to remember this



Care to share more on this?



Three authorities:

1. Professor Godfrey Muriuki - please read his published thesis on the Agikuyu

2. My Grandmother Wambui (may her soul rest in peace). Every time she used a Gikuyu proverb she would acknowledge the fact that all Gikuyu wisdom came from Kirinyaga (Embu and Mbere) by prefacing the saying as follows: "as the man wise man from Ndia (Kirinyaga) said...."

3. Professor Kabeeca Mwaniki and Professor Muriuki - say that the Gikuyu arrived in Nyeri, Muranga and Kabete in at least three streams: a) from Ithanga (via the Tana river up from the coast) b) from the north (Ethiopia via Meru and Mbeere) and c) from the east as a branch of the Maragoli, Kisii and partly the Purko Maasai/Samburu.

It is on record that:

a) more than a third of Gikuyu clan (mihiriga) names are Kamba

b)all Gikuyu sub-clan (mbari) names are derived from the Ndia

c) Consonant drift mandates that, over time, languages drift towards the easiest pronounceable sounds. Thus 'Kirinyaga; becomes ,'Kenyaa' (Kenya) proving that the Kamba language preceded Gikuyu

Finaly the origin story of the Agikuyu people with its strange affinity to Egyptian and Jewish mythology is clearly suspect.

It sounds like a narrative created in reverse, perhaps to justify Gikuyu land grabbing from the original Athi, Dorobo/Ogiek who occupied the Nyeri valley before they were chased out.

A caveat here: I am not trying to diss my people here. God knows others have done much worse.

Just telling it as it is.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#45 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:25:08 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
digitek1 wrote:
The Clown wrote:
@ Wakanyungi, sorry but I haven't understood your lengthy post.

The original poster (@nesta) asked: "Who came up with the Kikuyu alphabet?".

That's the question that I responded to and I think that's what this discussion is all about- the Gikuyu alphabet. I didn't see the word 'orthography' anywhere.

I studied the language in primary school and that much is clear in my first post. I'm quite happy to parade my ignorance, thank you.

I speak as a user of Gikuyu while you seem to have more of an academic interest in the tongue. So I can't find an appropriate insult in proto-Bantu, whatever that is.


speaking of insults why is ngombe such a bad insult to wasaps


A very good friend of mine, a Maasai, once told me that insults are relative. An insult is only effective if the insulted can get offended.

As a n example my friend told me that calling a Maasai man 'Ngombe' was actually a blessing, not an insult. It is like to calling me (a Gikuyu) pesa, or shamba...
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#46 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:30:08 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
simonkabz wrote:


If you want to learn Qyuk, read this post SLOWLY. A perfect summery.


Thimeoni: you are the one who needs to read the post again, very slowly. It is full of errors. For instance, the 'b'as in baba is not equivalent to 'f'- fafa. Never ever.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Tokyo
#47 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:32:38 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/9/2006
Posts: 1,502
It's impossible to write some words as they are pronounced using a borrowed alphabet and letters.
Chûchû , sûsû , cûcû ,shûshû.
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Wakanyugi
#48 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 4:49:37 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,634
Money Whisperer wrote:
anthropological linguists (I think that's what they are called) claim that Gikuyu (and Kimeru among others) is one of the root dialects of Bantu, in other words the original Bantu from which other Bantu languages emerged and got 'diluted' through interaction with other languages. These scholars demonstrate this position by the fact that some words in Gikuyu are extinct in other Bantu languages e.g the word Magego for teeth is archaic almost extinct n Swahili and other Bantu languages but is the current Gikuyu word for teeth. Sorry can't give the references now its been long since I did linguistics, I veered off into a different world


I do not claim to be a linguist or anthropologist. However I think our specialists could be wrong.

If the theory of consonant drift holds water then Kamba is older than Gikuyu

Outlier words like: 'Magegoo' even generation names like Mwangi, Maina, Njeri, Muchiri etc that have no equivalent in similar Bantu languages could be explained easily via derivation.

For instance Muchiri (Onchiri, Bushiri etc) is derived from the Egyptian god - Osiris (the great judge/advocate) and the meanings have remained closely similar. Wacici is from Isis, Wa-riua from Ra, Ngai from (Sumerian) Enki etc.

Maina and Mwangi, as I recently read on Wazua, could be likened/derived from Pharaoh Ikhnaton's rein. Njeeri/Waceera means 'one who roves' and commemorates the nomadic behavior of the original Gikuyu people.

Similarly ,many verbs are estranged from Bantu language.

Bantu origin has been brought to us through the names of things: ngombe, mbuzi, nyumba, watu (Bantu) etc.



"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Money Whisperer
#49 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 6:38:18 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/7/2010
Posts: 728
Location: Wazuaville
@Wakanyugi, using your own example Kirinyaga/Keenyaa to apply the consonant drift theory, I find that is is the opposite of what you are stating. To me Kamba is a later dialect derived from Gikuyu. How now? let me explain. consonant drift means as you correctly state that pronunciation moves to easier forms; the easier forms are those with less consonants. consonants are harder to pronounce than vowels infact a child in first language acquisition begins with vowels then consonants follow so it follows that between Kirinyaga and Kenyaa that the Kamba did away with the consonants in Kirinyaga. For example a wazua derivative drifts from McReggae to Mareggae, get the drift?

On Gikuyu/Kamba relations, the Gikuyu myth explains the Kamba as athoni (in-laws) through Wamuyu the ninth daughter of Gikuyu
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#50 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 7:13:07 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
while i do not agree with wakanyugi on the Gikuyu language being derived from Kikamba, I have noted in the past some words appearing in folk songs are absent from kawaida Gikuyu. The Kirinyaga people have those 'archaic' words to date. E.g. Njara. The Agikuyu use guoko to mean hand while the Kirinyaga Kikuyu use njara. Then the song in weddings goes 'mwana ndanyitagwo na NJARA ya umotho anyitagwo na ya urio..'. Other words are naii meaning bad or evil. It is not used among the non-Ndia people except when referring to criminals as mwiki naii or eki naii
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#51 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 7:19:12 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Money Whisperer wrote:
@Wakanyugi, using your own example Kirinyaga/Keenyaa to apply the consonant drift theory, I find that is is the opposite of what you are stating. To me Kamba is a later dialect derived from Gikuyu. How now? let me explain. consonant drift means as you correctly state that pronunciation moves to easier forms; the easier forms are those with less consonants. consonants are harder to pronounce than vowels infact a child in first language acquisition begins with vowels then consonants follow so it follows that between Kirinyaga and Kenyaa that the Kamba did away with the consonants in Kirinyaga. For example a wazua derivative drifts from McReggae to Mareggae, get the drift?

On Gikuyu/Kamba relations, the Gikuyu myth explains the Kamba as athoni (in-laws) through Wamuyu the ninth daughter of Gikuyu

ditto
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wanyuru
#52 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 7:30:16 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/29/2007
Posts: 948
radio wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
Wish I had anything of substance to contribute, sadly I'm 'born town' and speak pidgin Kikuyu. But 'Reminisce' with Mike Murimi(Not pronounced as written) makes for good practice... when they sing 'Gospel'smile

Of interest, is the difference between the pronounciation of 'No' Asha asa. And other similar words. Is it personal differences or is it regional, Kiambu Nyeri?


Aca is pronounced differently between Kiambu & Nyeri Agîkûyû. Those from Kiambu say ASA while the ones from Nyeri ASHA. Same applies to Cai- tea.


...and in some parts of Nyeri (karatina/mathira/othaya)
Aca= ACHA, cukari= chukari, cai-chai and "th" is pronounced as "s/c" e.g. Mathomo= masoomo/macoomo, Othaya=ùcaya/ùcaya
a4architect.com
#53 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 9:14:12 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
here is an interesting read of similarities between kikuyu language and Ethiopian Akhenaten

http://emmanuelkariuki.h...khenaten-and-the-Kikuyu
1. The kikuyu say TENE to mean long ago. There is also a bygone era known as TENE NA AGU.

2. the founder of the tribe was called Gĩkũyũ or TENE. According to Kenyatta in his treatise on the Kikuyu, a grand child of Gĩkũyũ, was overthrown due to his dictatorship tendencies.

3. The Kikuyu term for a Kind person is MUTANA and a mean person is MUKARE. MU is a prefix denoting a person or object with a spirit. In my interpretation, Akhenaten (TENE, TANA) was kind while his co-regent Smenkhare (KARE) was perceived to be mean.

4. There is reason to believe that a pharaoh was also called a 'Sycamore' tree. This is a fig and the word Gĩkũyũ (Kikuyu) means the great fig tree.Therefore, the founder of the tribe was the Great Fig.

5. From ethnographic material on the Kikuyu, I have gathered that there was a ceremony performed every 30 years called 'Ituika'. Just like the Hebsed in Egypt, the term translates to 'the becoming.' Egyptologists have given the same meaning to 'Hebsed'

A study of the Kikuyu Hebsed indicates to me that there were nine (9) fixed names for each 30 year period in 270 years. When arranged in chronology, the last name is MWANGI. When you break down the two syllables, you get MWA and NGI. Mwa stands for 'OF'.
The originator of the tribe was called – Gĩkũyũ (the big fig tree) and was also known as TENE. Akhenaten was also refered to as a FIG as were other male pharaohs.

· The largest river in Kenya is called the TANA – likely to be a suffix from Akhenaten’s name.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Rankaz13
#54 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 9:28:54 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 2,841
Location: Here
Wakanyugi wrote:
Money Whisperer wrote:
anthropological linguists (I think that's what they are called) claim that Gikuyu (and Kimeru among others) is one of the root dialects of Bantu, in other words the original Bantu from which other Bantu languages emerged and got 'diluted' through interaction with other languages. These scholars demonstrate this position by the fact that some words in Gikuyu are extinct in other Bantu languages e.g the word Magego for teeth is archaic almost extinct n Swahili and other Bantu languages but is the current Gikuyu word for teeth. Sorry can't give the references now its been long since I did linguistics, I veered off into a different world


I do not claim to be a linguist or anthropologist. However I think our specialists could be wrong.

If the theory of consonant drift holds water then Kamba is older than Gikuyu

Outlier words like: 'Magegoo' even generation names like Mwangi, Maina, Njeri, Muchiri etc that have no equivalent in similar Bantu languages could be explained easily via derivation.

For instance Muchiri (Onchiri, Bushiri etc) is derived from the Egyptian god - Osiris (the great judge/advocate) and the meanings have remained closely similar. Wacici is from Isis, Wa-riua from Ra, Ngai from (Sumerian) Enki etc.

Maina and Mwangi, as I recently read on Wazua, could be likened/derived from Pharaoh Ikhnaton's rein. Njeeri/Waceera means 'one who roves' and commemorates the nomadic behavior of the original Gikuyu people.

Similarly ,many verbs are estranged from Bantu language.

Bantu origin has been brought to us through the names of things: ngombe, mbuzi, nyumba, watu (Bantu) etc.


Which reminds me, I seem to recall reading that this name specifically is not originally Gíkúyú but came from one of the Kalenjin sub-tribes (I forget whether it was the Nandi, ni miaka mingi imepita). Anybody know how true this is?
Life is like playing a violin solo in public and learning the instrument as one goes on.
Rankaz13
#55 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 9:33:26 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 2,841
Location: Here
Wakanyugi wrote:
simonkabz wrote:


If you want to learn Qyuk, read this post SLOWLY. A perfect summery.


Thimeoni: you are the one who needs to read the post again, very slowly. It is full of errors. For instance, the 'b' as in baba is not equivalent to 'f'- fafa. Never ever.


True. Ever seen/heard how our Kírínyaga people pronounce the word 'baba' in their lingo? Almost like a Swahili 'baba' but with the lips slightly pursed to allow some air to pass through smile .

Life is like playing a violin solo in public and learning the instrument as one goes on.
mindigo
#56 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 9:52:10 AM
Rank: Hello


Joined: 11/27/2013
Posts: 6
Quote:
By the way consonant drift provides persuasive proof that Gikuyu is a derivative of Kikamba. In fact the Gikuyu tribe is a recent creation - as recent as 200 years ago - created for 'political' reasons. (Some of the bigots from Nyumba ya Muumbi and elsewhere need to remember this

Correct,but that's only a small paragraph in a very LOOOOOOng history involving Nubia,Egypt and the Middle East.
Fyi,Kyukes had a writing system as recently as a 100 years ago. As soon as the missionaries arrived it was forgotten. It was hieroglyphic, considered to be a debasement of a true alphabetical script and resembled Ibo nsibidi.

The original kyuke script was called gicandi and its very hard nearly impossible to find. I had saved a sample. Will post it up when I find it.
mukiha
#57 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 9:54:39 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
Generally, the spoken language is more dynamic than the written one. Thus English still retains the k in knife long after they stopped pronouncing it. Same for knight - there was a time when knight and night were pronounced differently...

But hat, heart, hut and hurt are still pronounced differently to date.

The spelling in Kikuyu was just an attempt to represent the sounds using the English alphabet. Learn to speak the language BEFORE learning to write/read it.

And if you think the Kikuyu write in a strange manner, consider the following...

Christmas instead of krismas

Read "NOT" aloud;
Read "ICE" aloud;
Now put the two together and read "NOTICE" aloud.

Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
Money Whisperer
#58 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:30:39 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/7/2010
Posts: 728
Location: Wazuaville
mukiha wrote:
Generally, the spoken language is more dynamic than the written one. Thus English still retains the k in knife long after they stopped pronouncing it. Same for knight - there was a time when knight and night were pronounced differently...

But hat, heart, hut and hurt are still pronounced differently to date.

The spelling in Kikuyu was just an attempt to represent the sounds using the English alphabet. Learn to speak the language BEFORE learning to write/read it.

And if you think the Kikuyu write in a strange manner, consider the following...

Christmas instead of krismas

Read "NOT" aloud;
Read "ICE" aloud;
Now put the two together and read "NOTICE" aloud.


Fish is spelt as GHOTI F as in enouGH I as in (I forget what, naomba serikali) and SH as in naTIon
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#59 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:47:10 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
mindigo wrote:
Quote:
By the way consonant drift provides persuasive proof that Gikuyu is a derivative of Kikamba. In fact the Gikuyu tribe is a recent creation - as recent as 200 years ago - created for 'political' reasons. (Some of the bigots from Nyumba ya Muumbi and elsewhere need to remember this

Correct,but that's only a small paragraph in a very LOOOOOOng history involving Nubia,Egypt and the Middle East.
Fyi,Kyukes had a writing system as recently as a 100 years ago. As soon as the missionaries arrived it was forgotten. It was hieroglyphic, considered to be a debasement of a true alphabetical script and resembled Ibo nsibidi.

The original kyuke script was called gicandi and its very hard nearly impossible to find. I had saved a sample. Will post it up when I find it.

these historians craze with Egyptian links is funny! Every tribe wants to be seen as having come from the north, the Nile region. There are articles claiming the Kalenjin and even the Luo are descendants of ancient Egyptians.

There are 2 theories I have bought from historians though:

1. The Abagusii are close relatives of the Mount Kenya tribes, left behind during the migration.(but this might mean the migratory route is different for the Mount Kenya tribes from the conventional one taught in history that passes through the coastal area)

2. The Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi came from Ethiopia....in my first interaction with a Mututsi, I asked them if they're Ethiopian
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#60 Posted : Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:00:53 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Siringi wrote:

Cege is not pronounced as sege. the c has a distinct pronunciation from s, I don't know how wakanyuhi would describe the sound...maybe dentohiss..he he


Somebody give us an app for pronunciations thenLaughing out loudly

The Rware people pronounce it as Shege. The Southern Sege. Or something very close to that.

Then in the north, some words change even the usually non contentious vowels. e.g some Northerners will say mutimia for woman in place of the conventional mutumia.

The t sound also very different!

Na mnasema anthropology haisaidii
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