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Emergence of East African Tigers
limanika
#1 Posted : Tuesday, August 27, 2013 6:57:31 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
http://www.skyscrapercit...forumdisplay.php?f=2335
Peruse through the discussions on the mega projects in the various EA countries and tell us which EA country you think will be more developed 10-20 years down the line? To me it seems Ethiopia is leading the pack, Kenya a distant second
limanika
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:02:48 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
limanika wrote:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2335
Peruse through the discussions on the mega projects in the various EA countries and tell us which EA country you think will be more developed 10-20 years down the line? To me it seems Ethiopia is leading the pack, Kenya a distant second

I didn't know its that difficult...simply put, Ethiopia's electric trains and cheap electricity will make it attractive for manufacturing firms...while Kenya will continue to attract firms offering services due to liberalised economy and better macroeconomic environment. Real GDP will grow faster in Ethiopia though under the circumstances...am I wrong?
mkeiyd
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:28:16 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 1,182
limanika wrote:
limanika wrote:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2335
Peruse through the discussions on the mega projects in the various EA countries and tell us which EA country you think will be more developed 10-20 years down the line? To me it seems Ethiopia is leading the pack, Kenya a distant second

I didn't know its that difficult...simply put, Ethiopia's electric trains and cheap electricity will make it attractive for manufacturing firms...while Kenya will continue to attract firms offering services due to liberalised economy and better macroeconomic environment. Real GDP will grow faster in Ethiopia though under the circumstances...am I wrong?


They are building their electric line, at some point in the future, we might as well. The US doesn't have extensive eletric rail network, but they remain efficient.

With coal, we can also generate cheap power.

Thing is, it's too early to throw in the towel. Ethiopia has some political upheavals to surmount. At the moment, things are looking up for them.
Obi 1 Kanobi
#4 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:06:50 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
limanika wrote:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2335
Peruse through the discussions on the mega projects in the various EA countries and tell us which EA country you think will be more developed 10-20 years down the line? To me it seems Ethiopia is leading the pack, Kenya a distant second

It would be very meaningful if you actually visited Ethiopia and see their current status. Kenyans have no clue just how far ahead of the curve they are, Addis is a supersized Mlolongo,the Ethiopian human capital capacity is behind TZ. They do have some upsides, e.g their home developed leather industry has some quality stuff,

I will say it here, the Kenyan GDP is understated by upto 100%, many Kenyans hide their wealth and real incomes etc to avoid tax.

"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
guru267
#5 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:35:54 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
Kenya will be unbwogable in East Africa both in real Gdp and per capita income...

The Ethiopians will be somewhere in 2nd place!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
mkeiyd
#6 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 10:37:35 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 1,182
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
limanika wrote:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2335
Peruse through the discussions on the mega projects in the various EA countries and tell us which EA country you think will be more developed 10-20 years down the line? To me it seems Ethiopia is leading the pack, Kenya a distant second

It would be very meaningful if you actually visited Ethiopia and see their current status. Kenyans have no clue just how far ahead of the curve they are, Addis is a supersized Mlolongo,the Ethiopian human capital capacity is behind TZ. They do have some upsides, e.g their home developed leather industry has some quality stuff,

I will say it here, the Kenyan GDP is understated by upto 100%, many Kenyans hide their wealth and real incomes etc to avoid tax.



In a liberalized econ like ours, with no centralized data gathering system, it's hard for KB of statistics to come up with near-accurate stats. With many common man deals done outside the formal system, i would agree with @Obi, its understated.
limanika
#7 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:41:52 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
guru267 wrote:
Kenya will be unbwogable in East Africa both in real Gdp and per capita income...

The Ethiopians will be somewhere in 2nd place!

GDP is a measure of value of goods exported from a country in a given year, not a measure of wealth. So it is possible for a seemingly ‘’poorer’’ country like Sudan and Ethiopia to have higher GDP than Kenya. Apparently this is actually the case! And GDP is the internationally accepted standard of measuring and comparing wealth creation.
Kenya of today and yesteryears may be having better developed cities and infrastructure than Ethiopia but am looking at the future 10-20 years. Ethiopia is coming up with policies that make its economy more competitive than Kenya i.e.
• Their electricity is subsidised by government so rates are among the cheapest anywhere in the world
• All land in Ethiopia is owned by the state. They are able to lease land to investors at minimal cost
• Their population is twice that of Kenya so the market is larger than Kenya.
On the other hand, cost of electricity and land in Kenya is among the highest anywhere in the world.
Why is it so difficult to see that Ethiopia is doing something right? Kenya may be a better democracy than Ethiopia, but again, Kenya is also better democracy than China. Irrespective of this, US manufacturing companies have opened satellite plants in China not Kenya. Investors think in terms of profits and not sentimental reasons, that’s why someone will only invest where they can reap maximum profits.
I am actually happy for Ethiopian people that they are able to come up with policies that will assure the development of their people. If they continue with these policies, 20 years down the line we will be comparing Kenya and Ethiopia of then and yesteryears and wondering where the rain started beating us.
guru267
#8 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:28:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
Since when did government subsidies ever help any situation?? All they do is mask problems and are not sustainable!

Ethiopia will have a lower absolute GDP and Per capita income than Kenya in the next 20 years...

I also do expect Kenya to start the path towards double digit growth!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
limanika
#9 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:45:01 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
guru267 wrote:
Since when did government subsidies ever help any situation?? All they do is mask problems and are not sustainable!

Ethiopia will have a lower absolute GDP and Per capita income than Kenya in the next 20 years...

I also do expect Kenya to start the path towards double digit growth!

Which problems do subsidies mask? The Ethiopian government foots most of the cost for power production and distribution so the end – user pays almost nothing. This leads to low cost of production and manufacturers are able to produce more goods, sell more goods, earn the country more in tax and this mitigates the cost of having paid for the subsidy in the first place. It is a case of playing mind games, and investor is only looking at the profit.
Please give better reason for your claim.
Pesa Nane
#10 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:49:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/25/2012
Posts: 4,105
Location: 08c
limanika wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Kenya will be unbwogable in East Africa both in real Gdp and per capita income...

The Ethiopians will be somewhere in 2nd place!

GDP is a measure of value of goods exported from a country in a given year, not a measure of wealth. So it is possible for a seemingly ‘’poorer’’ country like Sudan and Ethiopia to have higher GDP than Kenya. Apparently this is actually the case! And GDP is the internationally accepted standard of measuring and comparing wealth creation.
Kenya of today and yesteryears may be having better developed cities and infrastructure than Ethiopia but am looking at the future 10-20 years. Ethiopia is coming up with policies that make its economy more competitive than Kenya i.e.
• Their electricity is subsidised by government so rates are among the cheapest anywhere in the world
• All land in Ethiopia is owned by the state. They are able to lease land to investors at minimal cost
• Their population is twice that of Kenya so the market is larger than Kenya.
On the other hand, cost of electricity and land in Kenya is among the highest anywhere in the world.
Why is it so difficult to see that Ethiopia is doing something right? Kenya may be a better democracy than Ethiopia, but again, Kenya is also better democracy than China. Irrespective of this, US manufacturing companies have opened satellite plants in China not Kenya. Investors think in terms of profits and not sentimental reasons, that’s why someone will only invest where they can reap maximum profits.
I am actually happy for Ethiopian people that they are able to come up with policies that will assure the development of their people. If they continue with these policies, 20 years down the line we will be comparing Kenya and Ethiopia of then and yesteryears and wondering where the rain started beating us.

No way Ethiopia's closed economy will compete with the capitalistic / liberalized Kenya's economy.
Pesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
mv_ufanisi
#11 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:42:19 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/15/2010
Posts: 625
Ethiopia is coming up blindingly fast. I was in Addis in 2003 and then back in 2013. The change was mesmerizing. The new road network makes Thika road that Kenyans are overly impressed about a joke. Real estate in Addis Ababa is growing at a dizzying rate. Nairobi is still ahead of Addis Ababa but If things continue as they have, in 20 years, Addis Ababa will have far overtaken Nairobi. What you see in Ethiopia and Rwanda are focused governments getting things done. Here in Kenya we have individual genius but on the macro scale, we suck. You can compare Kenya to India and Ethiopia to China.
Ali Baba
#12 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 2:13:42 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/29/2008
Posts: 571
The problem with kenyans is we pre-occupy ourselves with tribal politics at the expense of development.We build one 50km Thika highway and we keep singing and shouting about it to the whole World while the other roads are earth/murram roads.
InnovateGuy
#13 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 2:56:03 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/15/2012
Posts: 1,110
I was watching a business program the other day, and one the most respected businessmen in Africa said that Ethiopia's economy is growing at an 'astronomical' rate. He compared Ethiopia's economy to Nigeria's and said the rest of the countries in Africa have 'small' economies.

Anyone with facts?
Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
Chaka
#14 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 3:39:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/16/2007
Posts: 2,114
Does Ethiopia have cement factories?
murchr
#15 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 4:01:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,979
I like it when Kenyans come here to defend their country without asking themselves several questions like...why has our gov started making Ethiopia a reference point? Ruto has been singing that we will grow our economy by double digits LIKE Ethiopia. Again, the Transport PS Eng Kamau has also told several people to just take a trip north.

Anyway...one thing that the Melez got right is to prioritize on infrastructure - Roads, Rail, Air transport, Electricity...etc no one will stop them from achieving their goals. The other thing on protecting their markets...isn't it the same thing that China did? Even America does, aljazeera had to fight to get into the American airwaves

Am happy now Kenya has a bigger pygmy to compete with
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Ericsson
#16 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 4:27:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,639
Location: NAIROBI
@Chaka;
There are the following cement companies;
Habesha cement Company
Dangote Cement Ethiopia
National Cement of Ethiopia;

Ethiopia is growing very fast and soon will overtake Kenya to become the kingpin of Eastern Africa.
There is too much politicking in Kenya that is consuming alot of time and energy at the expense of development.
Our Mpigs are only concerned about their perks at the expense of development and well being of all kenyans
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
limanika
#17 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 5:57:22 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
Pesa Nane wrote:
limanika wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Kenya will be unbwogable in East Africa both in real Gdp and per capita income...

The Ethiopians will be somewhere in 2nd place!

GDP is a measure of value of goods exported from a country in a given year, not a measure of wealth. So it is possible for a seemingly ‘’poorer’’ country like Sudan and Ethiopia to have higher GDP than Kenya. Apparently this is actually the case! And GDP is the internationally accepted standard of measuring and comparing wealth creation.
Kenya of today and yesteryears may be having better developed cities and infrastructure than Ethiopia but am looking at the future 10-20 years. Ethiopia is coming up with policies that make its economy more competitive than Kenya i.e.
• Their electricity is subsidised by government so rates are among the cheapest anywhere in the world
• All land in Ethiopia is owned by the state. They are able to lease land to investors at minimal cost
• Their population is twice that of Kenya so the market is larger than Kenya.
On the other hand, cost of electricity and land in Kenya is among the highest anywhere in the world.
Why is it so difficult to see that Ethiopia is doing something right? Kenya may be a better democracy than Ethiopia, but again, Kenya is also better democracy than China. Irrespective of this, US manufacturing companies have opened satellite plants in China not Kenya. Investors think in terms of profits and not sentimental reasons, that’s why someone will only invest where they can reap maximum profits.
I am actually happy for Ethiopian people that they are able to come up with policies that will assure the development of their people. If they continue with these policies, 20 years down the line we will be comparing Kenya and Ethiopia of then and yesteryears and wondering where the rain started beating us.

No way Ethiopia's closed economy will compete with the capitalistic / liberalized Kenya's economy.


Even Japan was overtaken by China yet they have a more liberalised western type economy.

I actually think it is pretty simple for a country like Kenya to develop, provided someone can press all the right buttons.

But this cannot happen when our main pre-occupation is what share of revenue county govts will milk from national government, instead of counties themselves seeking ways to generate revenue and even surpass the national government itself. Luxembourg and Singapore are among the richest countries in the world yet their sizes (2500sq km and 700sq km respectively) is nowhere near the average size of a county in Kenya (12,000sqkm)
murchr
#18 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:19:35 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,979
limanika wrote:
Pesa Nane wrote:
limanika wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Kenya will be unbwogable in East Africa both in real Gdp and per capita income...

The Ethiopians will be somewhere in 2nd place!

GDP is a measure of value of goods exported from a country in a given year, not a measure of wealth. So it is possible for a seemingly ‘’poorer’’ country like Sudan and Ethiopia to have higher GDP than Kenya. Apparently this is actually the case! And GDP is the internationally accepted standard of measuring and comparing wealth creation.
Kenya of today and yesteryears may be having better developed cities and infrastructure than Ethiopia but am looking at the future 10-20 years. Ethiopia is coming up with policies that make its economy more competitive than Kenya i.e.
• Their electricity is subsidised by government so rates are among the cheapest anywhere in the world
• All land in Ethiopia is owned by the state. They are able to lease land to investors at minimal cost
• Their population is twice that of Kenya so the market is larger than Kenya.
On the other hand, cost of electricity and land in Kenya is among the highest anywhere in the world.
Why is it so difficult to see that Ethiopia is doing something right? Kenya may be a better democracy than Ethiopia, but again, Kenya is also better democracy than China. Irrespective of this, US manufacturing companies have opened satellite plants in China not Kenya. Investors think in terms of profits and not sentimental reasons, that’s why someone will only invest where they can reap maximum profits.
I am actually happy for Ethiopian people that they are able to come up with policies that will assure the development of their people. If they continue with these policies, 20 years down the line we will be comparing Kenya and Ethiopia of then and yesteryears and wondering where the rain started beating us.

No way Ethiopia's closed economy will compete with the capitalistic / liberalized Kenya's economy.


Even Japan was overtaken by China yet they have a more liberalised western type economy.

I actually think it is pretty simple for a country like Kenya to develop, provided someone can press all the right buttons.

But this cannot happen when our main pre-occupation is what share of revenue county govts will milk from national government, instead of counties themselves seeking ways to generate revenue and even surpass the national government itself. Luxembourg and Singapore are among the richest countries in the world yet their sizes (2500sq km and 700sq km respectively) is nowhere near the average size of a county in Kenya (12,000sqkm)


I agree with you but correction Kenya's size = 582,647 sq. km

And to think the GDP of Kenya and Singapore were relatively the same at one time...anyway all we need is focus
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
limanika
#19 Posted : Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:27:24 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
murchr wrote:
limanika wrote:
Pesa Nane wrote:
limanika wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Kenya will be unbwogable in East Africa both in real Gdp and per capita income...

The Ethiopians will be somewhere in 2nd place!

GDP is a measure of value of goods exported from a country in a given year, not a measure of wealth. So it is possible for a seemingly ‘’poorer’’ country like Sudan and Ethiopia to have higher GDP than Kenya. Apparently this is actually the case! And GDP is the internationally accepted standard of measuring and comparing wealth creation.
Kenya of today and yesteryears may be having better developed cities and infrastructure than Ethiopia but am looking at the future 10-20 years. Ethiopia is coming up with policies that make its economy more competitive than Kenya i.e.
• Their electricity is subsidised by government so rates are among the cheapest anywhere in the world
• All land in Ethiopia is owned by the state. They are able to lease land to investors at minimal cost
• Their population is twice that of Kenya so the market is larger than Kenya.
On the other hand, cost of electricity and land in Kenya is among the highest anywhere in the world.
Why is it so difficult to see that Ethiopia is doing something right? Kenya may be a better democracy than Ethiopia, but again, Kenya is also better democracy than China. Irrespective of this, US manufacturing companies have opened satellite plants in China not Kenya. Investors think in terms of profits and not sentimental reasons, that’s why someone will only invest where they can reap maximum profits.
I am actually happy for Ethiopian people that they are able to come up with policies that will assure the development of their people. If they continue with these policies, 20 years down the line we will be comparing Kenya and Ethiopia of then and yesteryears and wondering where the rain started beating us.

No way Ethiopia's closed economy will compete with the capitalistic / liberalized Kenya's economy.


Even Japan was overtaken by China yet they have a more liberalised western type economy.

I actually think it is pretty simple for a country like Kenya to develop, provided someone can press all the right buttons.

But this cannot happen when our main pre-occupation is what share of revenue county govts will milk from national government, instead of counties themselves seeking ways to generate revenue and even surpass the national government itself. Luxembourg and Singapore are among the richest countries in the world yet their sizes (2500sq km and 700sq km respectively) is nowhere near the average size of a county in Kenya (12,000sqkm)


I agree with you but correction Kenya's size = 582,647 sq. km

And to think the GDP of Kenya and Singapore were relatively the same at one time...anyway all we need is focus


That’s total size, divided by 47 to get average for county.
timbosho
#20 Posted : Thursday, August 29, 2013 4:28:22 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 8/23/2013
Posts: 34
From the thesis of the former Prime Minister of Ethiopia, the late Meles Zenawi:

"The political and economic renaissance of Africa is an issue that continues to preoccupy Africans' and non-Africans alike. Various methods of achieving such a renaissance have been proposed.
Most of these proposals are variations of the dominant neo-liberal paradigm of development. My argument is that the neo-liberal paradigm is a dead end, is incapable of bringing about the African renaissance, and that a fundamental shift in paradigm is required to bring about the African renaissance."
Another section
"Creating the proper blend of norms, values and rules to reduce uncertainty and transaction costs is a critical factor in accelerated growth and development. The creation of such social values and norms is called social development or social capital accumulation. Social development is thus not only an essential element of development but also a critical instrument of accelerated economic growth.
The accumulation of social capital, which plays such a critical role in accelerating economic growth, is a public good which has increasing returns to scale. It is, hence, undersupplied by the market and is subject to vicious and virtuous cycles. It is created by social activity by civic engagement in the context of horizontal and dense networks and inculcated and sustained through modeling, socialization and sanctions. The state plays a critical role in social capital accumulation through undermining patronage networks and promotion of fairness and equity, through the promotion of participation and democracy, and through appropriate sanctions and efforts at socialization."

Document is titled Dead Ends and New Beginnings

A lot of big sounding words, but basically, he says when a country is developing from a very low level like Kenya and most other African countries, the state has a big role to play in guiding development and allocation of scarce resources for maximum return in the best interest of the country. However, the state has to do it right. Not be wasteful,corrupt and inefficient.
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