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Constitution Review; Secular vs religious state
mkristo
#1 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:50:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 168
Location: Nairobi
I heard Mutula Kilonzo saying that the inclusion of Kadhi Courts in the Kenya Constitution is not a contentious issue.
In that case,let us also have the Bible,Hindu's Holy Book (whatever they call it) and all other religious laws including those of Mwene Nyaga Worshippers,currently being referred to as Mungiki; in the Constitution.
Why should Muslims be given preferential treatment over other Religions? Is their law supreme to the law of other religions and that of the land or what is the matter here?
Which makes me wonder,should we not have a secular state that recognizes the diversity of religious backgrounds and respects the freedom of worship? What is your view?

the voice of reason
Bashka
#2 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:38:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 7/31/2008
Posts: 116
@Mkristo,did you hear well what the Minister said. Kadhi's court was already in the old constitution. It is not new thing that is why it is not contentious.
mkristo
#3 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:44:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 168
Location: Nairobi
@ Bashka,

With all due respect; what then is the purpose of Constitution review? Could you explain that? If we feel that the inclusion of Khahdi Courts was a mistake in the first place,why should it not be corrected now? Why cover it up with 'It is not contentious cos its been there from kitambo'? I would say,if that is how it is,then,AWAY with the whole review process. Come referendum and we shall vote it out.

the voice of reason
mukiha
#4 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:16:00 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
mkristo:

Few points to note:


The constitution review team asked Kenyans to send in views on issues they consider contentious regarding the drafts that had been published in the last process.
Nobody listed the Kadhi Court as a contentious issue! Please let us know if you sent in your views on this matter. If you didn't,then don't complain now!!
The matter of religious courts was properly handled in the Bomas draft and contentious clauses (as ably voiced by Bishop Margaret Wanjiru) were rectified.
Unlike other religions,Islam has a very elaborate court system documented in their religious code. The Christians,for example,do not have one!!


Behind the gardens...Behind the wall...Under the tree (Including: Red...Dark Blue...Yellow)
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
kizee
#5 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:26:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/9/2008
Posts: 537
@mkristo

the issue of kadhi courts has been misunderstood,the courts are already included in the constitution and the law thereupon applies only to two persons who profess the muslim faith...in matters of marriage,inheritance etc...the laws of the country also have aspects of hindu law as pertains to acts such as the leasing and hire purchase act....please note that the current laws which govern our land are based on cannon law...cannon law was postulated by one saint francis of assisi and is mainly based on the teachings of the catholic church at the time....the issue of seperation of church/mosque and state can never be acheived 100 percent...even in the national anthem and the loyalty pledge there are aspects that require one to pledge loyalty to God etc etc...
B.Timer
#6 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:34:00 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
@Mukristo

There is no reason whatsoever why one religion should be elevated by such an elaborate mention in a secular states constitution.

Mutula should not try to play around with this matter. Currently,as far as I know,the Kadhis court is achored in a act of parliament,which works just fine.
Why the Muslims are pushing to have it entrenched in the constitution leaves alot to be desired.
As you put it the essence of overhauling/rewritting the constitution is to right any wrongs including expunging from it,any detail that shouldnt have been there in the first place.

B.timer
Dunia ni msongamano..
B.Timer
#7 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:49:00 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076


Nobody has said Kadhis court has jurisdiction to those who do not profess Islam faith.
What people have an issue with is Islam getting preferential treatment in the constitution by being accorded some special and elaborate attention.

Lets take cognisance of the philosophy of spirit of the law:

In law there is something they call,or to the effect of,- implied import or meaning.
Reading of such a constitution by an international lawyer will leave him with an impression that the writers intended to elevate Islam as top most state religion.

While at it can anybody tell me why Muslims are not content with having the Kadhis court operate as legislated by an act of Parliament.

The constitution strictly mentions matters of grave concern to the entire nation.
I am not persuaded that Kadhis court fit that bill.

B.timer
Dunia ni msongamano..
mkristo
#8 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:12:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/7/2007
Posts: 168
Location: Nairobi
@ mukiha

Thank you for bringing up a few issues to the surface,also for posting the clause from the draft.

Let me first say that we have presented our views to the committee of experts,and they are the ones who advised Mutula that the matter in questions is not a big issue and he flowed with them. In essence,they brushed away all that had been given to them concerning Islamic Courts for reasons we do not know and went ahead to say that they are not contentius. Margaret Wanjiru,I respect her as a minister of God,is unfortunately not very much educated and knows little about strategies that muslims employ to push their angenda of Islamization. If she knew,she would not have endorsed the inclussion of the courts.

One other thing,i have a problem with the fact that the operations of Kadhi Courst will be such as is prescribed by an act of parliarment. How do we know that the same clause cannot be used in future by muslims to push for their agenda? How would they do that?

Here is the answer. One thing you need to realize is that these guys are one and the same wherever they are in the whole world. So what one says in Kenya in backed by what the other says in USA,Iraq,Egypt,Nigeria,UK... A muslim is a muslim no matter where they are,not what they do. Secondly,they have a lot of money... and with money power they can buy a nation...or have you forgotten so soon what is already happening with our real estate market? Who are the people buying? Thirdly,there will come a time,when muslims will command a chunk of Kenya's wealth. They will be able to sponsor their own into parliament and finally they will pass bills into acts of parliaminets that will slowly but surely transform this nation into an Islamic state.

Guys this is a serious matter and everyone needs to see what Christians are saying. This is not merely a battle of wits between Wakristo and Waislamu,no! It is about your future,the future of our children and much more. Can you imagine waking up one day and Kenya is like some of the Middle East countries,or worst,like Somali?

Can I get a witness? May be am mad,but I like Kenya cos we are free to express ourselves anyway.



the voice of reason
mukiha
#9 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 11:30:00 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
@mkristo:

I detect from your post that you do not like Muslims and that you do not trust them at all. You appear to believe that they are out to convert everyone to their religion 'through the back door' or by force.

Let's turn the tables around and ask; do you hear them complaining about the numerous christian programmes airing on Kenyan TV...including the national broadcaster,KBC? Can't that be interpreted to be converting everyone into Christianity through the back door?

You have a low opinion of Bishop Wanjiru,yet she was the first person to come out publicly (in a press conference) opposing the inclusion of Kadhi's courts in the new constitution.

Regarding their perceived wealth; what is wrong with Kenyans buying property from other Kenyans who are selling it willingly without any coarsion?

At the risk of being branded tribalist; wasn't this the same thing that Kikuyus did in the rift valley only to be chased away by people holding your kind of belief?

The greatest threat to Christianity is not Islam or any other religion. The greatest threat is to be found within the church (giving itself a bad name) and in etheists and secularists who believe that religion has not place in govenment.

Want evidence? Look at what is happening in America where you cannot display the Cross in any public building and teachers cannot wish their pupils a merry Christmas (instead the have to say 'Happy Holidays')



Behind the gardens...Behind the wall...Under the tree (Including: Red...Dark Blue...Yellow)
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
gk
#10 Posted : Tuesday, June 23, 2009 11:51:00 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/17/2008
Posts: 489
...methinks this fear for Islam is much ado about nothing. Its typical stereopyping of those different from us that has made this nation so divided.

...the Muslims in TZ have far greater say in national agenda but is TZ any less cohesive for it?

@ mkristo

..i love the wit with which you've analysed motoring issues,put it here as well.
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