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DUAL CITIZENSHIP
caesar
#1 Posted : Wednesday, August 20, 2008 1:37:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 149
Israel has it,Ghana has it,Why not Kenya? How come diaspora sends all this money to Kenya yet Kenya has not reciprocated. Diaspora will be a major force in the future of Kenya. How come the current government has not recognized this.

Lets blog and blog,lets make this a political issue. Why not create a ministry of Diaspora Affairs,or elevate a major department in The ministry of Foreign affairs?

Why not dont we have formal well organized government forums to discuss diapora as a future driver of Kenyan economy. Diaspora is growing in wealth and must not be ignored.

What do people in SK think?
doh
#2 Posted : Wednesday, August 20, 2008 2:58:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/15/2008
Posts: 58
And yet it is so simple. It does not need a constitutional review. Just by passing a bill in parliament. Simple and yet they have audacity to talk about Alvaro.

info is money
caesar
#3 Posted : Wednesday, August 20, 2008 4:12:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 149
I agree with you Doh,People residing in the homeland have nothing to lose. With thousands of children born in foreign lands by Kenyan parents. Kenya needs to find a way to usher this new generation that will grow with all the benefits of the first world ASAP. With all those MPS,and ministers ideas like this are just common sense. But its sorry to say that our leaders are narrow minded,visionless and lazy...
tony stark
#4 Posted : Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:36:00 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
Dual citzenship is not a small matter.
What rights do you earn as a dual citizen .... where do they pay taxes.
Do they have right to tax payer amenities as non dual citizens.

Do not assume dual citizens are only in the first world. Some people from countries less priviledge from ours can claim rights as citizens then what do you say and do.

We have bigger problems than trying to recruit more people into kenyan citizenship like making teh current kenyan citizens one which is so hard with all this negative tribalism going round
So don't trivialize dual citizenship by qualifying it 'with israel and ghana have it!!!'

veni vedi vici
Drogo
#5 Posted : Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:56:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 5
Most Kenyans living in Kenya are not even patriotic or nationalistic. A good number continue to define themselves as per the tribal cocoons from which they emerged. That,my fellow countrymen,is a more dire and urgent issue than granting dual citizenship to fellows living in the west whose primary allegiance is usually to the richer country anyway.

Will guys in the diaspora increase remittances once they have dual citizenship? Will they stop the money transfers if things continue as they are and as they should be? I think not.

Happiness can't buy you money!
caesar
#6 Posted : Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:10:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 149
Being patriotic or nationalistic is a personal choice. If Kenyans living in Kenya have chosen to live with bigotry and tribalism,then shame on them. Being physically present in Kenya does not give an individual more claim of the homeland than Kenyans elsewhere. I guess determining taxes and the other things would take more than 210 MPS all hands on deck less than 10 munutes.
Drogo
#7 Posted : Wednesday, August 20, 2008 9:54:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 5
@ saecar
Of course being a Kenyan citizen residing in Kenya gives one a higher claim to the motherland compared to a non-resident! It goes without saying. That's why Article 43 of the current constitution declares residency as a prerequisite to election as an MP- and that's just an example.

Kenyans in the diaspora simply want to have their cake and eat it.

They want to have a safety net (Kenya) while they continue hailing the Queen or singing the star-spangled banner.

Happiness can't buy you money!
doh
#8 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:43:00 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/15/2008
Posts: 58
Taxation should be based on where the income is generated or where the transaction is carried out. I donot think it is a complex thing. Most of the kenyans in diaspora are already doing it. If one was to buy say a house; you will pay the stamp duty. If you invest in a company here; it pays corporate tax; VAT etc.

Dual citizenship has nothing to do with national cohesion. Our ethnic problems are deep rooted. They may no go away in this century. And we have many other problems that are a reflection of our society such us not being able to have sober discussions here on SK without being abusive. So lets separate the issues.


info is money
mukiha
#9 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:59:00 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
Citizenship is one of those things that you have to think long and hard about. It is like marriage - you really have to think about the person you want to live with the rest of your life...without ever considering the possibility of having a second partner. If you are unhappy with your spouse,then leave them first before starting another relationship...you cannot serve two masters at the same time!!!!!!

Same with citizenship - you have to consider carefully which country you wish to 'belong' to. Once you have made up your mind,then you have to drop your loyalty to the current one and dedicate yourself to the new country of choice.

But then again,there is the interesting case of Obama whom many Kenyans consider to be their countryman yet he is a US citizen,by birth! This is the principle used by Israel. According to Israelis,all Jews wherever they live,are Israeli citizens - whether they have papers to that effect or not!

In my view,if I ever decide to take any other country's citizenship,I will surrender my Kenyan one immediately - whether or not the law will allow me to hold dual citizenship.

For that reason,I don't understand why people are asking for dual citizenship.
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
mukiha
#10 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:00:00 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
Citizenship is one of those things that you have to think long and hard about. It is like marriage - you really have to think about the person you want to live with the rest of your life...without ever considering the possibility of having a second partner. If you are unhappy with your spouse,then leave them first before starting another relationship...you cannot serve two masters at the same time!!!!!!

Same with citizenship - you have to consider carefully which country you wish to 'belong' to. Once you have made up your mind,then you have to drop your loyalty to the current one and dedicate yourself to the new country of choice.

But then again,there is the interesting case of Obama whom many Kenyans consider to be their countryman yet he is a US citizen,by birth! This is the principle used by Israel. According to Israelis,all Jews wherever they live,are Israeli citizens - whether they have papers to that effect or not!

In my view,if I ever decide to take any other country's citizenship,I will surrender my Kenyan one immediately - whether or not the law will allow me to hold dual citizenship.

For that reason,I don't understand why people are asking for dual citizenship.
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
caesar
#11 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 1:45:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 149
Kenyan's in the Diaspora's story is like that of Joseph in Egypt. People like possible President Elect Barack Obama will gain privedges and obligations of a Kenyan citizen. There should be no insecurity for Kenyan's in the homeland when approaching the diaspora.

I know of stories of many people in the UK & US who used to make $7/hr now make $25/hr. More and more Kenyans are entering and graduating from Top Universities and Nursing Schools landing good jobs increasing their earning power significantly. As is Kenya is not ready for these breed of citizens.

If just 200,000 Kenyans reside outside Kenya,just send back $1000/ year thats 13 Billion/ yr. That is an equivalence of 5 grand regencies by Kimunya's Valuation.
mukiha
#12 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:09:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
So? How does that relate to dual citizenship? One can still send the money even if not a citizen of Kenya,can't they?
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
tony stark
#13 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:10:00 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
You keep trying to make it a small issue. Dual citizenship in israel is not the same as it is in kenya( our neighbour are not trying to wipe kenya out of the map israel needs all the numbers it can get)
We are 32 million as of the last cencus the 2006 KDHS suggest we are 38mill currently.
Why do we need more people?? Those kenyan you are talking about are success stories what about those lazy guys who just chew dole and other handouts from there goverment do you want those kenyans to become citizens here to?
What about the damn taxes??? If your are a kenyan citizen and you are earning money you have to pay tax where will this guys pay theres. INCOME TAX?? not stamp duty,not V.A.T.

Are there children going to school in public university as local students paying 20k per year? What about education will they get free primary and secondary school education as locals?

Are they going to pay park fee entrance during there holidays as locals?

How do you qualify for dual citizenship .... mother/ or father kenyan,or grandparents kenyans or there is someone upto 6 generations ahead was kenyan.

How will it affect the (hopefully) soon to be east african union. Do you think tanzanians want to compete with this new kenyans from the diaspora. We are bad enough for them as it is??
This issues are not even the tip of the iceberg.
My suggestion is more thought and more discussion,and not only in parliament,is required.

veni vedi vici
mukiha
#14 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:20:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
@ tony stark - these days,war is not won on number of troupes but on number of bullet-equivalents you can fire per second.

the Israeli policy is a matter of nationalism,not military might.

By the way,when one gets dual citizenship,what nationality are they?
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
caesar
#15 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:28:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 149
@Mukiha,earning and average $40,000. $1000 is peanuts. These people with pooled funds,Ideas,have enough money to build the next KICC or KRA buildings. Extend research wings of our universities,build mass rental houses,Create an yearly stable tourism and enhance world wide knowledge of Kenya,create liquidity,growth and stability in our capital markets.

Diaspora is not a small issue. Dual citizenship will create enthusiasm. It would be a new way of Kenya showing some love to all the hardworking Kenyans who have been doing the above.
mukiha
#16 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 2:35:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
If it is the Kenyans resident in Kenya who will gain from the 'enthusiasm,how come the calls for this dual citizenship are coming from those in the diaspora?
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
caesar
#17 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 3:46:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 149
Mukiha,Some would have asked why Mathaai was planting trees in Karura and not on her garden?

It may not matter who is asking for it. It matters if it is a good thing for Kenya as a whole.
tony stark
#18 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:47:00 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
@ muhika
I dont think the american's will agree with you on the numbers.
@caesar
To cut a long story short how will i gain from dual citizenship. I have no relatives who send me remittance,and there money just goes to there relatives anyway. They raise the raise the property value beyond what my meagre salary can afford. I dont want to compete with them.
So why should my taxes be used on this individuals really?
IF you can answer this simple question then you will be 1/10000000000 through your task of trying to single handely covinving kenyans why they need dual citizenship.
Don't forget about the EAC how will the dual citizens be treated and other international treaties and agreements we have with other countries.

veni vedi vici
caesar
#19 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 5:09:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/25/2007
Posts: 149
@ Tony

Imagine if the 'little enthusiasm' raises remittances from $1000/yr to $1000/ Quarter. This would bring and annual $52Billion of new investments. They you would not have to pay a lot of taxes.
MoKenya
#20 Posted : Thursday, August 21, 2008 6:15:00 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 25
@ Mukiha,Tony Stark & all those opposed to dual citizenship

Is every decision made in the national agenda meant to benefit you? I don't think so. When Kenya hosted people running away from countries in turmoil,you paid for it through taxation; did you directly gain? When government raises taxes,do you benefit directly? When questionable 'expatriates' are given work permits,how does this benefit you?

And just because you are not gaining,does not mean it is purposeless or that someone else should not!

Kenyans in diaspora need dual citizenship for several reasons; one being not to have to obtain and renew entry visas every so often when they are back in Kenya. Even though visa renewal is a revenue source,most people may bring in more productivity to the economy if they do not have to think that someone with ulterior motives can opt to deny them stay.

Most people left to improve their situations and I see nothing wrong with that.They still have strong links back home (including spouses and children) and strong desire to return back someday. I see nothing wrong with that either. Many have taken up their foreign country's residence or citizenship so as access services and be able to work. They pay tax where they work/earn income,i.e. to the host's taxation authority,and tax on their investments in Kenya to KRA. Some send remittances,others invest and some do both.

Increase in property values in Kenya is not a diaspora effect alone as some contend. People in Kenya have had access to cheaper loans + other liquidity sources,in the last couple years and have naturally turned to property investment for higher returns.

As Ceasar mentions,some Kenyan non-citizens may be more enthusiastic in investing if they had claim to their original country's citizenship. Not knowing how existing and future laws would affect them,many would rather hold back and only send remittances. Sending remittances is but just a small % of resources the diaspora members can put to work in the economy.

As someone mentioned,people pay taxes where they earn,so anyone who earns in Kenya will pay taxes in Kenya. Where this and other matters (voting,holding elective or political office,etc) conflict,they can be legislated. That is what parliament is for.

Besides,there are ways to go about things too,in absence of dual citizenship (so why deny it?)

One is for a family to have one member maintain Kenyan Citizenship and be the primary front in Kenya,while the other family member(s) maintain the foreign country's citizenship.

Another is simply to renounce Foreign country's citizenship when one return's home.

I for one have maintained my Kenyan citizenship,and my host country does not require me to be a citizen to access most services,so that is one way I go around this issue!

'Debt may go bad but it never rots.' Chinua Achebe
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