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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2015 Posts: 468 Location: Nairobi
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Horton wrote:Ericsson wrote:Investors will take their money back to the traditional unit trusts like ICEALION, CIC,britam who give lower rates of interest than cytonn but have sense of stability and security Maybe, but having talked to other investors like myself, the naysayers have been saying this thing will collapse 6 years ago. Don't see that happening. Perhaps we look for a new song to sing? Can any bank survive a bank run?
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/3/2007 Posts: 18,347 Location: Nairobi
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Horton wrote:sparkly wrote:VituVingiSana wrote:Lots of commentary but none have answered the questions below. @Sparkly @DeadPoet do you have the info as insiders/investees? VituVingiSana wrote:Cytonn accused of flouting CMA regulations in cash call https://www.businessdail...ns-in-cash-call-2374156
Questions: What is the yield on the CHYS and CPNs? Do those who invested in the CHYS continue getting paid the interest, in cash, during the extension period? If no, do those who invested in the CHYF or CPNs continue accruing the interest during the extension period? @VVS, I am neither an investor nor an insider. My interest for now is purely academic  I am however in support of the freedom to engage in enterprise, contract and invest which Cytonn and the investors have exercised. @VVS as someone who has invested before Covid like myself: CHYS and CPN 15-20% depending on amounts and period During extension, we are getting 50% interest (albeit abit late) and 50% is capitalized and earns interest so it compounds. However, they are getting better at paying earlier each month. The guys who invested Post-covid, they have no such extensions. They are paid on the due date. I know a few people that have been post covid @DeadPoet @Horton - Asante. @Sparkly - You are just trolling @paulkimani  If an investor is relatively confident they will get their principal back then it looks like a good deal even with 50% interest (7.5-10% per year) paid. *Not investment advice. I am just making an observation. I wish Cytonn all th best. Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 4,058 Location: Gwitu
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kawi254 wrote:Horton wrote:Ericsson wrote:Investors will take their money back to the traditional unit trusts like ICEALION, CIC,britam who give lower rates of interest than cytonn but have sense of stability and security Maybe, but having talked to other investors like myself, the naysayers have been saying this thing will collapse 6 years ago. Don't see that happening. Perhaps we look for a new song to sing? Can any bank survive a bank run? As an investor, I am satisfied with the explanation given by Cytonn. I knew what I was getting into and am not going to ask for my money before 2021. Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2009 Posts: 8,083 Location: Enk are Nyirobi
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VituVingiSana wrote:Horton wrote:sparkly wrote:VituVingiSana wrote:Lots of commentary but none have answered the questions below. @Sparkly @DeadPoet do you have the info as insiders/investees? VituVingiSana wrote:Cytonn accused of flouting CMA regulations in cash call https://www.businessdail...ns-in-cash-call-2374156
Questions: What is the yield on the CHYS and CPNs? Do those who invested in the CHYS continue getting paid the interest, in cash, during the extension period? If no, do those who invested in the CHYF or CPNs continue accruing the interest during the extension period? @VVS, I am neither an investor nor an insider. My interest for now is purely academic I am however in support of the freedom to engage in enterprise, contract and invest which Cytonn and the investors have exercised. @VVS as someone who has invested before Covid like myself: CHYS and CPN 15-20% depending on amounts and period During extension, we are getting 50% interest (albeit abit late) and 50% is capitalized and earns interest so it compounds. However, they are getting better at paying earlier each month. The guys who invested Post-covid, they have no such extensions. They are paid on the due date. I know a few people that have been post covid @DeadPoet @Horton - Asante. @Sparkly - You are just trolling @paulkimani
If an investor is relatively confident they will get their principal back then it looks like a good deal even with 50% interest (7.5-10% per year) paid. *Not investment advice. I am just making an observation. I wish Cytonn all th best. @VVS far from it, I am applying Socratic questioning because we can only learn counter intuitive concepts like economics and finance by asking questions. I am also challenging @Paulkimani not to be a bystander or play victim on his investment decisions. Life is short. Live passionately.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/19/2016 Posts: 204
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1. I’ve never invested in Cytonn (as I mentioned many times before) @sparkly, so I have not played “victim”.
It’s simple for me. If I don’t trust the people investing the money, I won’t invest.
The Cytonn four started with Britam suing them and the four returning the 4 billion. Then over the years, all the suits against them poured on, their marketing was too aggressive and a repeat of many like Suraya and Cloud 1. Their in-house lawyer was reported to LSK to get her law license revoked - but her own dad was on the decision committee and Cytonn just decided to sponsor the same committee that month.
And now - they are actually slamming CMA in public. You can be against an authority but while you let your case be heard you still need to follow the regulations just like citizens need to follow the rules of the law or face concequences.
Cytonn has always rubbed me the wrong way and I have mentioned countless times since inception, why.
Investing billions into two properties that I think have no taste, I have seen many better ones for a better price and majority know that. I would never throw the 100m into a house in langaga. I don’t know who would.
Alas - good luck to investors and those who have hope - good. I am not one of them and am now in the majority (not on wazua but in general).
Best of luck to you and I’ll invest my funds where I see safe.
Let’s see what happens.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 6/5/2019 Posts: 19
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I understand Dande's profile includes having worked with lehman brothers. Google about the co. I think he is a trouble maker and knows how to get his way through it all. Listen to him on engage talk-Falling forward. paulkimani wrote:1. I’ve never I invested in Cytonn (as I mentioned many times before) @sparkly, so I have not played “victim”.
It’s simple for me. If I don’t trust the people investing the money, I won’t invest.
The Cytonn four started with Britam suing them and the four returning the 4 billion. Then over the years, all the suits against them poured on, their marketing was too aggressive and a repeat of many like Suraya and Cloud 1. Their in-house lawyer was reported to LSK to get her law license revoked - but her own dad was on the decision committee and Cytonn just decided to sponsor the same committee that month.
And now - they are actually slamming CMA in public. You can be against an authority but while you let your case be heard you still need to follow the regulations just like citizens need to follow the rules of the law or face concequences.
Cytonn has always rubbed me the wrong way and I have mentioned countless times since inception, why.
Investing billions into two properties that I think have no taste, I have seen many better ones for a better price and majority know that. I would never throw the 100m into a house in langaga. I don’t know who would.
Alas - good luck to investors and those who have hope - good. I am not one of them and am now in the majority (not on wazua but in general).
Best of luck to you and I’ll invest my funds where I see safe.
Let’s see what happens.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/19/2016 Posts: 204
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Yes. His past experience speaks for itself. Some people see Wall Street and think it’s a goldmine, some people see it and see red flags. I personally have only seen red flags with the company time and time again, including the financials they post which I have perused. The aggressive nature of the Cytonn four, the constant pushing of their unregulated products which have time and time again been called out, by banks resigning as custodian, to the CMA issuing warnings, to struggling investors on Twitter to many court cases. These are too many red flags for my personal taste, many more that we have seen before not mentioned today. Esstiko wrote:I understand Dande's profile includes having worked with lehman brothers. Google about the co. I think he is a trouble maker and knows how to get his way through it all. Listen to him on engage talk-Falling forward. paulkimani wrote:1. I’ve never I invested in Cytonn (as I mentioned many times before) @sparkly, so I have not played “victim”.
It’s simple for me. If I don’t trust the people investing the money, I won’t invest.
The Cytonn four started with Britam suing them and the four returning the 4 billion. Then over the years, all the suits against them poured on, their marketing was too aggressive and a repeat of many like Suraya and Cloud 1. Their in-house lawyer was reported to LSK to get her law license revoked - but her own dad was on the decision committee and Cytonn just decided to sponsor the same committee that month.
And now - they are actually slamming CMA in public. You can be against an authority but while you let your case be heard you still need to follow the regulations just like citizens need to follow the rules of the law or face concequences.
Cytonn has always rubbed me the wrong way and I have mentioned countless times since inception, why.
Investing billions into two properties that I think have no taste, I have seen many better ones for a better price and majority know that. I would never throw the 100m into a house in langaga. I don’t know who would.
Alas - good luck to investors and those who have hope - good. I am not one of them and am now in the majority (not on wazua but in general).
Best of luck to you and I’ll invest my funds where I see safe.
Let’s see what happens.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/19/2016 Posts: 204
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Not to mention: Alykhan Satchu, caught for insider trading, spoke out against Cytonn publicly, then was paid by Cytonn and changed his story saying Cytonn was great. Same with Robert Alai, Kahawatugu and many more. Cytonn have always been aggressive. Their high turnover of staff also means investors are always speaking to someone brand new which gets them nowhere in their questions and concerns. This is exactly what Suraya did. Had new sales people so often that investors could never speak to the person who had sold them hot air. A creepy coincidence? Maybe, but a red flag for many. paulkimani wrote:Yes. His past experience speaks for itself. Some people see Wall Street and think it’s a goldmine, some people see it and see red flags. I personally have only seen red flags with the company time and time again, including the financials they post which I have perused. The aggressive nature of the Cytonn four, the constant pushing of their unregulated products which have time and time again been called out, by banks resigning as custodian, to the CMA issuing warnings, to struggling investors on Twitter to many court cases. These are too many red flags for my personal taste, many more that we have seen before not mentioned today. Esstiko wrote:I understand Dande's profile includes having worked with lehman brothers. Google about the co. I think he is a trouble maker and knows how to get his way through it all. Listen to him on engage talk-Falling forward. paulkimani wrote:1. I’ve never I invested in Cytonn (as I mentioned many times before) @sparkly, so I have not played “victim”.
It’s simple for me. If I don’t trust the people investing the money, I won’t invest.
The Cytonn four started with Britam suing them and the four returning the 4 billion. Then over the years, all the suits against them poured on, their marketing was too aggressive and a repeat of many like Suraya and Cloud 1. Their in-house lawyer was reported to LSK to get her law license revoked - but her own dad was on the decision committee and Cytonn just decided to sponsor the same committee that month.
And now - they are actually slamming CMA in public. You can be against an authority but while you let your case be heard you still need to follow the regulations just like citizens need to follow the rules of the law or face concequences.
Cytonn has always rubbed me the wrong way and I have mentioned countless times since inception, why.
Investing billions into two properties that I think have no taste, I have seen many better ones for a better price and majority know that. I would never throw the 100m into a house in langaga. I don’t know who would.
Alas - good luck to investors and those who have hope - good. I am not one of them and am now in the majority (not on wazua but in general).
Best of luck to you and I’ll invest my funds where I see safe.
Let’s see what happens.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2009 Posts: 8,083 Location: Enk are Nyirobi
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Back in 1976, Berkeley professor Carlo M. Cipolla outlined the five laws of a constant in society he feared: stupidity. To Cipolla, the stupid people among us possess several identifying traits: “they are abundant, they are irrational, and they cause problems for others without apparent benefit to themselves, thereby lowering society’s total well-being.”
To the sadly departed Carlo, there are no defences against stupidity, the best thing one can do is identify the problem.
Law 1: Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation.
No matter how many idiots you suspect yourself surrounded by, Cipolla wrote, you are invariably lowballing the total. This problem is compounded by biased assumptions that certain people are intelligent based on superficial factors like their job, education level, or other traits we believe to be exclusive of stupidity. They aren’t. Which takes us to:
Law 2: The probability that a certain person be stupid is independent of any other characteristic of that person.
Cipolla posits stupidity is a variable that remains constant across all populations. Every category one can imagine—gender, race, nationality, education level, income—possesses a fixed percentage of stupid people. There are stupid college professors. There are stupid people at Davos and at the UN General Assembly. There are stupid people in every nation on earth. How numerous are the stupid amongst us? It’s impossible to say. And any guess would almost certainly violate the first law, anyway.
Law 3. A stupid person is a person who causes losses to another person or to a group of persons while himself deriving no gain and even possibly incurring losses.
Cipolla called this one the Golden Law of stupidity. A stupid person is one who causes problems for others without any clear benefit to himself.
This law also introduces three other phenotypes that Cipolla says co-exist alongside stupidity. First, there is an intelligent person, whose actions benefit both himself and others. Then there is the bandit, who benefits himself at others’ expense. And lastly, there is the helpless person, whose actions enrich others at his own expense. The non-stupid are a flawed and inconsistent bunch. Sometimes we act intelligently, sometimes we are selfish bandits, sometimes we act helplessly and are taken advantage of by others, and sometimes we’re a bit of both. The stupid, in comparison, are paragons of consistency, acting at all times with unyielding idiocy.
However, consistent stupidity is the only consistent thing about the stupid. This is what makes stupid people so dangerous. Cipolla explains: “Essentially stupid people are dangerous and damaging because reasonable people find it difficult to imagine and understand unreasonable behaviour. An intelligent person may understand the logic of a bandit. The bandit’s actions follow a pattern of rationality: nasty rationality, if you like, but still rationality. The bandit wants a plus on his account. Since he is not intelligent enough to devise ways of obtaining the plus as well as providing you with a plus, he will produce his plus by causing a minus to appear on your account. All this is bad, but it is rational and if you are rational you can predict it. You can foresee a bandit’s actions, his nasty maneuvres and ugly aspirations and often can build up your defences.
With a stupid person, all this is absolutely impossible as explained by the Third Basic Law. A stupid creature will harass you for no reason, for no advantage, without any plan or scheme and at the most improbable times and places. You have no rational way of telling if and when and how and why the stupid creature attacks. When confronted with a stupid individual you are completely at his mercy.”
All of which leads us to:
Law 4: Non-stupid people always underestimate the damaging power of stupid individuals. In particular non-stupid people constantly forget that at all times and places and under any circumstances to deal and/or associate with stupid people always turns out to be a costly mistake.
We underestimate the stupid, and we do so at our own peril.
This brings us to the fifth and final law:
Law 5: A stupid person is the most dangerous type of person.
We can do nothing about the stupid. The difference between societies that collapse under the weight of their stupid, and those who transcend them are the makeup of the non-stupid. Those progressing in spite of their stupid possess a high proportion of people acting intelligently, those who counterbalance the stupid’s losses by bringing about gains for themselves and their fellows.
Declining societies have the same percentage of stupid people as successful ones. But they also have high percentages of helpless people and, Cipolla writes, “an alarming proliferation of the bandits with overtones of stupidity.”
“Such change in the composition of the non-stupid population inevitably strengthens the destructive power of the fraction and makes decline a certainty,” Cipolla concludes.
Life is short. Live passionately.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/15/2010 Posts: 625
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First ethical rule: If you see fraud and do not say fraud, you are a fraud.
~Naseem Nicholas Taleb
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