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Kenya Airways...why ignore..
VituVingiSana
#8001 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 6:39:19 AM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,344
Location: Nairobi
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
@Wazua please help me understand who's buying this stock noting the prevailing cautionary announcement

Experienced speculators Laughing out loudly

@spikes how do they get to know that they are buying at a premium or discount


Speculators depend on TA ...they don't care about FA.. Aiming at making a lucrative trade is the concern of speculators.

@spikes can TA really forecast through a cautionary statement.. that is a weak answer, but luckily I did not expect a well defined response from you. thanks anyways


Every event whether positive or negative in the stock market is an opportunity to trade and make money. Hawkish speculators took advantage of cautionary statement to position themselves .In that case my response above is well researched and uncensored ! But while you contemptuously delve into my explanation as 'weak' you should substantiate your 'intricate' claim.

If not for the poor taxpayer getting screwed [again] the value of KQ shares would be zero BUT tuta-do? Even with the (unfortunate) bailout there is little value in KQ. In the meantime, KK [even KenGen] is doing quite well.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
obiero
#8002 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 7:12:57 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 14,211
Location: nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
@Wazua please help me understand who's buying this stock noting the prevailing cautionary announcement

Experienced speculators Laughing out loudly

@spikes how do they get to know that they are buying at a premium or discount


Speculators depend on TA ...they don't care about FA.. Aiming at making a lucrative trade is the concern of speculators.

@spikes can TA really forecast through a cautionary statement.. that is a weak answer, but luckily I did not expect a well defined response from you. thanks anyways


Every event whether positive or negative in the stock market is an opportunity to trade and make money. Hawkish speculators took advantage of cautionary statement to position themselves .In that case my response above is well researched and uncensored ! But while you contemptuously delve into my explanation as 'weak' you should substantiate your 'intricate' claim.

If not for the poor taxpayer getting screwed [again] the value of KQ shares would be zero BUT tuta-do? Even with the (unfortunate) bailout there is little value in KQ. In the meantime, KK [even KenGen] is doing quite well.

@chief vvs newbies are watching you. please give us a decent answer. If the share is meant to trade at 0, then why is it trading at 5

KQ ABP 4.26
VituVingiSana
#8003 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 2:56:02 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,344
Location: Nairobi
obiero wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
@Wazua please help me understand who's buying this stock noting the prevailing cautionary announcement

Experienced speculators Laughing out loudly

@spikes how do they get to know that they are buying at a premium or discount


Speculators depend on TA ...they don't care about FA.. Aiming at making a lucrative trade is the concern of speculators.

@spikes can TA really forecast through a cautionary statement.. that is a weak answer, but luckily I did not expect a well defined response from you. thanks anyways


Every event whether positive or negative in the stock market is an opportunity to trade and make money. Hawkish speculators took advantage of cautionary statement to position themselves .In that case my response above is well researched and uncensored ! But while you contemptuously delve into my explanation as 'weak' you should substantiate your 'intricate' claim.

If not for the poor taxpayer getting screwed [again] the value of KQ shares would be zero BUT tuta-do? Even with the (unfortunate) bailout there is little value in KQ. In the meantime, KK [even KenGen] is doing quite well.

@chief vvs newbies are watching you. please give us a decent answer. If the share is meant to trade at 0, then why is it trading at 5

1) Stupidity/Irrationality [Greater Fool Theory]
2) Implicit & explicit guarantees from GoK [Taxpayers] bailout

Another example is Uchumi which is a dead man walking. Or Mumias.

Uchumi, KQ and Mumias are important to the country but not in their current state.

Example: KQ should enter into voluntary (bankruptcy) restructuring and the assets (bilateral rights, planes, staff, etc) its needs moved to a new entity. The "new KQ" can continue the business with the assets while the liabilities remain with the "old KQ" which can then be wound up. The creditors of "old KQ" would become the shareholders of the better capitalized "new KQ" which can also source for new funding/shareholders. Unfortunately, the shareholders of the "old KQ" will be wiped out and creditors would take a haircut BUT the country/taxpayers will be better off for it.

Many US airlines have done so including United, Delta, etc.

In addition,GoK shouldn't look at KQ as a cash cow [taxes, levies, etc] but as a facilitator for other sectors eg tourism. Jambojet (& similar entities) should be encouraged to expand regionally. It's much cheaper to fly in Europe than from Nairobi to Dar/EBB/KGL [1 hour flights].
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
obiero
#8004 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 10:17:17 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 14,211
Location: nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
obiero wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
Spikes wrote:
obiero wrote:
@Wazua please help me understand who's buying this stock noting the prevailing cautionary announcement

Experienced speculators Laughing out loudly

@spikes how do they get to know that they are buying at a premium or discount


Speculators depend on TA ...they don't care about FA.. Aiming at making a lucrative trade is the concern of speculators.

@spikes can TA really forecast through a cautionary statement.. that is a weak answer, but luckily I did not expect a well defined response from you. thanks anyways


Every event whether positive or negative in the stock market is an opportunity to trade and make money. Hawkish speculators took advantage of cautionary statement to position themselves .In that case my response above is well researched and uncensored ! But while you contemptuously delve into my explanation as 'weak' you should substantiate your 'intricate' claim.

If not for the poor taxpayer getting screwed [again] the value of KQ shares would be zero BUT tuta-do? Even with the (unfortunate) bailout there is little value in KQ. In the meantime, KK [even KenGen] is doing quite well.

@chief vvs newbies are watching you. please give us a decent answer. If the share is meant to trade at 0, then why is it trading at 5

1) Stupidity/Irrationality [Greater Fool Theory]
2) Implicit & explicit guarantees from GoK [Taxpayers] bailout

Another example is Uchumi which is a dead man walking. Or Mumias.

Uchumi, KQ and Mumias are important to the country but not in their current state.

Example: KQ should enter into voluntary (bankruptcy) restructuring and the assets (bilateral rights, planes, staff, etc) its needs moved to a new entity. The "new KQ" can continue the business with the assets while the liabilities remain with the "old KQ" which can then be wound up. The creditors of "old KQ" would become the shareholders of the better capitalized "new KQ" which can also source for new funding/shareholders. Unfortunately, the shareholders of the "old KQ" will be wiped out and creditors would take a haircut BUT the country/taxpayers will be better off for it.

Many US airlines have done so including United, Delta, etc.

In addition,GoK shouldn't look at KQ as a cash cow [taxes, levies, etc] but as a facilitator for other sectors eg tourism. Jambojet (& similar entities) should be encouraged to expand regionally. It's much cheaper to fly in Europe than from Nairobi to Dar/EBB/KGL [1 hour flights].

That is a decent and deep response.. We now await next week for the news, plus farewell to Ngunze the great

KQ ABP 4.26
VituVingiSana
#8005 Posted : Friday, July 14, 2017 11:52:55 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,344
Location: Nairobi
@Obiero - I stand by my original thesis that the "old KQ" is a poor investment for the "minority" [and GoK] shareholder. I would not advice anyone to invest in KQ at today's price. The road to recovery will be long and hard.

There are some assumptions here but it's a general guide.
Currently GoK pays 10% tax-free (& risk-free) for 5-6 year paper which means 5/- will become 10/- in 7 years (June 2024). I don't see KQ shares at 10/- by Jun 2024. You can adjust these numbers +/- 10% but the overall conclusion remains the same for the LONG-TERM investor who is not speculating.

I expect the banks, etc will look to sell their shares ASAP since they aren't in the "owning shares" business. Then there may be other sellers eg IFC.

GoK could sweeten the pot by giving KQ waivers [duty, tax, credits, etc] just as KenGen had these 150% "investment deduction credits"...
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
obiero
#8006 Posted : Saturday, July 15, 2017 7:31:29 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 14,211
Location: nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
@Obiero - I stand by my original thesis that the "old KQ" is a poor investment for the "minority" [and GoK] shareholder. I would not advice anyone to invest in KQ at today's price. The road to recovery will be long and hard.

There are some assumptions here but it's a general guide.
Currently GoK pays 10% tax-free (& risk-free) for 5-6 year paper which means 5/- will become 10/- in 7 years (June 2024). I don't see KQ shares at 10/- by Jun 2024. You can adjust these numbers +/- 10% but the overall conclusion remains the same for the LONG-TERM investor who is not speculating.

I expect the banks, etc will look to sell their shares ASAP since they aren't in the "owning shares" business. Then there may be other sellers eg IFC.

GoK could sweeten the pot by giving KQ waivers [duty, tax, credits, etc] just as KenGen had these 150% "investment deduction credits"...

Aha. But the share was at KES 7.7 just months ago.. With the adjusted shares via expected rights issue of course a lower price will print. Only question remaining is at what price will the conversion be

KQ ABP 4.26
obiero
#8007 Posted : Sunday, July 16, 2017 6:03:18 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 14,211
Location: nairobi
Ericsson wrote:
obiero wrote:
actuarywahisa wrote:
obiero wrote:
Ericsson wrote:

Kq is still in negative equity. Government loans amounting to $243mn is what will be converted to equity.
$525mn owed to US Exim Bank and $225mn owed to local lenders will have to be repaid with GOK acting as guarantor.
Local lenders/banks will not own any stake in KQ.

You could be right and that would imply less dilution.. Meanwhile, airlines and negative equity go hand in hand.. It's a normal thingy which we have already discussed here. The cash flow is what will be increased via the tenor concessions.. And that is a very good thing... As for bank debt to equity position, soma hii link along with the cautionary statement http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1962OA


The $225m for local banks will be converted to equity and then the deal appears for them to exit through open market. In the event that they are unable to exit and recover their money within the set timelines because of share price not recovering sufficiently then the government has to step in and compensate. And in the unlikely event that KQ folds then the Government wires capital + interest.

@actuary seems @Ericsson did not go to school.. Could we team up and send the guy for gumbaru


Kweli sikwenda shule.
Tafakari haya basi

"KQ, as it is known by its international code, secured House approval that will see the Treasury guarantee long-term loans that the airline owes the US Exim Bank ($525 million) and local lenders ($225 million).

These guarantees are being made in exchange for “material concessions” that include an extension of debt tenors, which will improve the airline’s repayment obligations."

http://www.businessdaily...76768-cxrmd3/index.html

@ericsson learn to listen to people who know what is happening.. KQ Lenders Co. LTD registered on 09.06.2017 shall now be a KQ shareholder. Total shares issued now rises to 29.9B.. Conversion price KES 2.13.. The same occurring via a share split and eventual consolidation with a factor of 1:4, resulting in 7.4B final listed shares. I await the Open Offer of 1.5B whose price the exchange bar notes has been agreed in principle to fall below KES 1.6.. There is no rights option so indeed I will buy to mitigate dilution of 95.5%, noting that the KQ Lenders Co Ltd, GoK & KLM will not participate in the issue. GoK now holds 45% of KQ.. KLM founding agreement of 1995 abolished. KQ now in positive equity of KES 11.5B. Sit tight

KQ ABP 4.26
Spikes
#8008 Posted : Sunday, July 16, 2017 6:32:47 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/20/2015
Posts: 2,811
Location: Mombasa
obiero wrote:
Ericsson wrote:
obiero wrote:
actuarywahisa wrote:
obiero wrote:
Ericsson wrote:

Kq is still in negative equity. Government loans amounting to $243mn is what will be converted to equity.
$525mn owed to US Exim Bank and $225mn owed to local lenders will have to be repaid with GOK acting as guarantor.
Local lenders/banks will not own any stake in KQ.

You could be right and that would imply less dilution.. Meanwhile, airlines and negative equity go hand in hand.. It's a normal thingy which we have already discussed here. The cash flow is what will be increased via the tenor concessions.. And that is a very good thing... As for bank debt to equity position, soma hii link along with the cautionary statement http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1962OA


The $225m for local banks will be converted to equity and then the deal appears for them to exit through open market. In the event that they are unable to exit and recover their money within the set timelines because of share price not recovering sufficiently then the government has to step in and compensate. And in the unlikely event that KQ folds then the Government wires capital + interest.

@actuary seems @Ericsson did not go to school.. Could we team up and send the guy for gumbaru


Kweli sikwenda shule.
Tafakari haya basi

"KQ, as it is known by its international code, secured House approval that will see the Treasury guarantee long-term loans that the airline owes the US Exim Bank ($525 million) and local lenders ($225 million).

These guarantees are being made in exchange for “material concessions” that include an extension of debt tenors, which will improve the airline’s repayment obligations."

http://www.businessdaily...76768-cxrmd3/index.html

@ericsson learn to listen to people who know what is happening.. KQ Lenders Co. LTD registered on 09.06.2017 shall now be a KQ shareholder. Total shares issued now rises to 29.9B.. Conversion price KES 2.13.. The same occurring via a share split and eventual consolidation with a factor of 1:4, resulting in 7.4B final listed shares. I await the Open Offer of 1.5B whose price the exchange bar notes has been agreed in principle to fall below KES 1.6.. There is no rights option so indeed I will buy to mitigate dilution of 95.5%, noting that the KQ Lenders Co Ltd, GoK & KLM will not participate in the issue. GoK now holds 45% of KQ.. KLM founding agreement of 1995 abolished. KQ now in positive equity of KES 11.5B. Sit tight


Which means my prophecy of 2/ bob is already smashed!
John 5:17 But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”
obiero
#8009 Posted : Sunday, July 16, 2017 6:44:14 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 14,211
Location: nairobi
obiero wrote:
sparkly wrote:
obiero wrote:
enyands wrote:
ArrestedDev wrote:
obiero wrote:
ArrestedDev wrote:
maka wrote:
21st July...thats Thursday I believe...


What will happen by then? Yves last working day?

9 days to go.. The rally is full on as predicted by @karasinga


Thursday as @Maka states.

CS Treasury hints at an equity partner within one month from now. They will play with it to favour them.



Interesting. Thursday is the day ,then a month time is when true shareholding will be realised! !!hope not dilution of current shareholders by creating more shares! !

The exchange bar confirms that dilution is on the way.. In this scenario KQ does not have the capital to service current liabilities and the firm is hindered from issuing new debt due to covenants of existing debt and a rights issue cannot even be mentioned. PJT Partners proposes equity offering of new shares worth KES 60B.. It will be an ebb and flow, dying to live or living to die.. I speak in code


Who will provide 60Bn equity to a company with -45Bn shareholders' funds? Junk bonds maybe, equity never.

By Jun 04.2017 the exchange bar already tipped off the knowledge on dilution.. @sparkly mentioned junk bonds.. Whatever that means

Crunch time.. All unfolds as previously foretold by the exchange bar. Only the bold and liquid are expected around here

KQ ABP 4.26
Ericsson
#8010 Posted : Sunday, July 16, 2017 6:48:35 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 10,804
Location: NAIROBI
If GOK and KLM sit out in the rights issue chances of undersubsription very high
Wealth is built through a relatively simple equation
Wealth=Income + Investments - Lifestyle
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