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Kenyatta family to build a City in Ruiri
Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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@ Ndugu Swenani I have also noted that on this subject, you seek to fault Mzee Kenyatta on account of abuse of office - in allocating himself free land as opposed to dispossessing any private land owner of their land. At least there we have covered some milestone as this has been the years old selling point for demagogues. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Ngalaka wrote:Swenani wrote:Ngalaka wrote:In the 60’s Kenya’s population was in the region of 10 million or thereabouts. Kenya's land mass was the same as it is today, now against a population of about 45 million.
It follows therefore that anybody who wanted to own land went ahead and owned it, in sizes that they thought was sufficient for their needs. Of course those who wanted to acquire land relinquished by the settlers had to buy it off. Other Land was readily available in Kenya, and most of it unclaimed - read free for occupation, all one needed to do was to settle there and begin cultivating it.
I take the view that Kenyatta committed no wrong by acquiring land – as no one has credibly demonstrated that he disposed them of their land through unlawful means.
The rest is politics – the so called sound bites.
Pointless! Assuming I had powers to issue title deeds now and went to Turkana,Kiunga or Loitoktok and allocated myself massive land acreage since no one in that area owns a title deed or do not live there is that okay? Will anyone prove that I disposed them of any land? The government holds land in trust for its citizens,when you as the head of GOK proceed to issue massive acreage of land to yourself just because no one lives or has a title deed to the same land is not okay Quote:Three years after Kenya’s independence in 1963, its iconic leader, Mzee Jomo Kenyatta, invoked the powers of his office to award himself a “small” farm in Juja, on the fringes of his Gatundu homeland, an hour north of Nairobi.
The “small” farm was 509 acres. In this spirit of fairness, the grand old man also gave his son, Peter Magana Kenyatta, 200 acres next to his land. Now the two could be neighbours.
At the time, the president was telling millions of landless squatters that the new Government did not have free land to give out. Majority of the squatters had been disinherited and displaced by the colonial government as punishment for supporting the Mau mau.
Leading by example, Kenyatta paid for the two parcels of land he had obtained for himself and his son. The amount he paid was a princely sum of Sh5,472. That’s for some 709 acres! Essentially, he was buying each acre for Sh7.70. At least it wasn’t free.
On July 9, 1966, while executing the powers vested in his office, Kenyatta officially transferred the land to himself. The title deed reads in part: ”The President of the Republic of Kenya on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Kenya grant unto His Excellency Mzee Jomo Kenyatta, President of Kenya (Post Office Box 125 Ruiru) the piece of land situated in Nairobi, containing 509 acres Land Reference Number 11493…”
The only condition the “Government” gave to Kenyatta was that the land be used for agricultural purposes only.
Kenyatta would repeat the script on November 14, 1966, and sign off some 200 acres to his beloved son Magana. Documents relating to Magana’s land indicate that the title was freehold. He shared the postal address with his father.
As I said in my initial post, If anyone presents CREDIBLE grounds on impropriety at the time of acquiring the land - I would take my words back. In that spirit, kindly provide us the link to the source of your quote! I hope it is credible, though the tenor of its language is a sell out. I wish to keep an open mind though. The purchase must be considered in the context of the fight for independence. If 'ĺand' was a reason for the fight, it follows that after the fight was won the land should have been redistributed in a manner that had some semblance to the original status whose disruption led to the war. I did mention link between ignorance and advantage. Of course, after the land fight something had to be done or created to keep the ignorant still in ignorance. Enter politics, demagoguery.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/3/2014 Posts: 1,063
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By the way does anyone know how much Mzee paid for the large tracks of land?When the maumau were still in the forests some people had started acquiring large pieces of land.When they came from the forest they were told there is nothing for free.Where were they supposed to get the money from?The collaborators were lucky to educate their kids and they were given priority and responsibility of allocating the land to those who are in villages.The children of maumau are squatters.  Consistency is better than intensity
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Ngalaka wrote:@ Ndugu Swenani
I have also noted that on this subject, you seek to fault Mzee Kenyatta on account of abuse of office - in allocating himself free land as opposed to dispossessing any private land owner of their land.
At least there we have covered some milestone as this has been the years old selling point for demagogues.
My argument is based on those trying to justify that the allocation was okay since no one was disposed off the title and that there were no people living around that area which is a false argument because 1. Kenyans started having title deeds post independence and up to date most Kenyans do not have title deeds, the few Kenyans who own title deeds are the ones mainly found in Nairobi, central and rift valley. 2.Who said people were not living in Ruiru,during colonization,people were rounded off and taken to work in farms which means that people left their homesteads which were later destroyed. 3.Land was owned by a community not by individuals-there were no title deeds.If you go to Kiunga a local is a allowed to farm anywhere since the land belongs to the community and people do not have title deeds and neither does the community have a title deed because the government holds that land for them in trust,It will be an impropriety for someone(especially for a president) to allocate himself land in Kiunga knowing very well that the locals have no title deeds and then ask people to provide credible grounds for impropriety proving that the president has disposed off a private land owner Kenyatta's acquisition of land in Ruiru, Coast and rift valley was unprocedural thus an impropriety If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/3/2014 Posts: 1,063
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Swenani wrote:Ngalaka wrote:@ Ndugu Swenani
I have also noted that on this subject, you seek to fault Mzee Kenyatta on account of abuse of office - in allocating himself free land as opposed to dispossessing any private land owner of their land.
At least there we have covered some milestone as this has been the years old selling point for demagogues.
My argument is based on those trying to justify that the allocation was okay since no one was disposed off the title and that there were no people living around that area which is a false argument because 1. Kenyans started having title deeds post independence and up to date most Kenyans do not have title deeds, the few Kenyans who own title deeds are the ones mainly found in Nairobi, central and rift valley. 2.Who said people were not living in Ruiru,during colonization,people were rounded off and taken to work in farms which means that people left their homesteads which were later destroyed. 3.Land was owned by a community not by individuals-there were no title deeds.If you go to Kiunga a local is a allowed to farm anywhere since the land belongs to the community and people do not have title deeds and neither does the community have a title deed because the government holds that land for them in trust,It will be an impropriety for someone(especially for a president) to allocate himself land in Kiunga knowing very well that the locals have no title deeds and then ask people to provide credible grounds for impropriety proving that the president has disposed off a private land owner Kenyatta's acquisition of land in Ruiru, Coast and rift valley was unprocedural thus an impropriety  Consistency is better than intensity
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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PeterReborn wrote:Swenani wrote:Ngalaka wrote:@ Ndugu Swenani
I have also noted that on this subject, you seek to fault Mzee Kenyatta on account of abuse of office - in allocating himself free land as opposed to dispossessing any private land owner of their land.
At least there we have covered some milestone as this has been the years old selling point for demagogues.
My argument is based on those trying to justify that the allocation was okay since no one was disposed off the title and that there were no people living around that area which is a false argument because Who spoke of Titles!!! - Question is If there were people pushed out of land to pave way for his acquisition of it. 1. Kenyans started having title deeds post independence and up to date most Kenyans do not have title deeds, the few Kenyans who own title deeds are the ones mainly found in Nairobi, central and rift valley. There is no dispute here2.Who said people were not living in Ruiru,during colonization,people were rounded off and taken to work in farms which means that people left their homesteads which were later destroyed. Provide evidence, no gut feeling issues here!3.Land was owned by a community not by individuals-there were no title deeds.If you go to Kiunga a local is a allowed to farm anywhere since the land belongs to the community and people do not have title deeds and neither does the community have a title deed because the government holds that land for them in trust,It will be an impropriety for someone(especially for a president) to allocate himself land in Kiunga knowing very well that the locals have no title deeds and then ask people to provide credible grounds for impropriety proving that the president has disposed off a private land owner Yes it would be an impropriety, so was it the case! I wish to know from facts, not relying on folktalesKenyatta's acquisition of land in Ruiru, Coast and rift valley was unprocedural thus an impropriety These are mere suppositions Dont be escapist brother, we need to discuss if Jomo abused his powers relating to his acquisition of land. and or if he disposed people of their privately held land (pushing people out) Aside from Jomo acquiring land, the argument that since land is owned by communally, one (not necessarily Jomo) shouldn't acquire it, is defeatist. Your forebearers and or their neighbours probably probably got themselves land for private use - in varying sizes depending on their shrewdness. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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Kenyans occupy less than a third of their beautiful country. Here we are complaining about an individual or a family for owning land yet we stopped buying land as we are into plots. 50 years on, as someone said here earlier, our great grand children will be here cursing. To to own a plot in Marsabit, Mandera, Moyale or even Mogotio will be a dream.  Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Ngalaka wrote:PeterReborn wrote:Swenani wrote:Ngalaka wrote:@ Ndugu Swenani
I have also noted that on this subject, you seek to fault Mzee Kenyatta on account of abuse of office - in allocating himself free land as opposed to dispossessing any private land owner of their land.
At least there we have covered some milestone as this has been the years old selling point for demagogues.
My argument is based on those trying to justify that the allocation was okay since no one was disposed off the title and that there were no people living around that area which is a false argument because Who spoke of Titles!!! - Question is If there were people pushed out of land to pave way for his acquisition of it. 1. Kenyans started having title deeds post independence and up to date most Kenyans do not have title deeds, the few Kenyans who own title deeds are the ones mainly found in Nairobi, central and rift valley. There is no dispute here2.Who said people were not living in Ruiru,during colonization,people were rounded off and taken to work in farms which means that people left their homesteads which were later destroyed. Provide evidence, no gut feeling issues here!3.Land was owned by a community not by individuals-there were no title deeds.If you go to Kiunga a local is a allowed to farm anywhere since the land belongs to the community and people do not have title deeds and neither does the community have a title deed because the government holds that land for them in trust,It will be an impropriety for someone(especially for a president) to allocate himself land in Kiunga knowing very well that the locals have no title deeds and then ask people to provide credible grounds for impropriety proving that the president has disposed off a private land owner Yes it would be an impropriety, so was it the case! I wish to know from facts, not relying on folktalesKenyatta's acquisition of land in Ruiru, Coast and rift valley was unprocedural thus an impropriety These are mere suppositions Dont be escapist brother, we need to discuss if Jomo abused his powers relating to his acquisition of land. and or if he disposed people of their privately held land (pushing people out) -Read my previous post,you can grab land without disposing off a private land owner e.g Mau forest ,karura forest etcAside from Jomo acquiring land, the argument that since land is owned by communally, one (not necessarily Jomo) shouldn't acquire it, is defeatist- Where have I said that communally owned land cannot be acquired? There is a process on how communally owned land is shared-Visit loitoktok to learn how it was done in the ranchesYour forebearers and or their neighbours probably probably got themselves land for private use - in varying sizes depending on their shrewdness. -I will shrewdness means mischievous meaning it was not procedural @Ngalaka, Why do you provide evidence that there were no people living in Ruiri before colonization? Donot use gut feeling  Kenyatta abused his power by allocating himself over 50% of taita taveta and over 800 acres of land in Juja to his family at the expenses of the community members. How many landless people are in Kiambu? Taita taveta yet they belong to the community which was inhabiting that part of the country before colonization came in. Were these people forefathers landless before colonization how did they end up landless? we have been told up there that people were buying 1.25 acres of land at Kshs 1,000 in 1968 yet mzee got a bargain from the government he was head of at only kshs 7 meaning at close to 6K he paid, he was only entitledto less than 10 acres but ended up get 509 acres. If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: User Joined: 8/15/2013 Posts: 13,237 Location: Vacuum
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Njung'e wrote:Kenyans occupy less than a third of their beautiful country. Here we are complaining about an individual or a family for owning land yet we stopped buying land as we are into plots. 50 years on, as someone said here earlier, our great grand children will be here cursing. To to own a plot in Marsabit, Mandera, Moyale or even Mogotio will be a dream. No one is disputing that but you have to acquire the land procedurally, you cannot use your powers to "steal" land If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/20/2011 Posts: 1,822 Location: Nakuru
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Swenani wrote:Ngalaka wrote:In the 60’s Kenya’s population was in the region of 10 million or thereabouts. Kenya's land mass was the same as it is today, now against a population of about 45 million.
It follows therefore that anybody who wanted to own land went ahead and owned it, in sizes that they thought was sufficient for their needs. Of course those who wanted to acquire land relinquished by the settlers had to buy it off. Other Land was readily available in Kenya, and most of it unclaimed - read free for occupation, all one needed to do was to settle there and begin cultivating it.
I take the view that Kenyatta committed no wrong by acquiring land – as no one has credibly demonstrated that he disposed them of their land through unlawful means.
The rest is politics – the so called sound bites.
Pointless! Assuming I had powers to issue title deeds now and went to Turkana,Kiunga or Loitoktok and allocated myself massive land acreage since no one in that area owns a title deed or do not live there is that okay? Will anyone prove that I disposed them of any land? The government holds land in trust for its citizens,when you as the head of GOK proceed to issue massive acreage of land to yourself just because no one lives or has a title deed to the same land is not okay Quote:Three years after Kenya’s independence in 1963, its iconic leader, Mzee Jomo Kenyatta, invoked the powers of his office to award himself a “small” farm in Juja, on the fringes of his Gatundu homeland, an hour north of Nairobi.
The “small” farm was 509 acres. In this spirit of fairness, the grand old man also gave his son, Peter Magana Kenyatta, 200 acres next to his land. Now the two could be neighbours.
At the time, the president was telling millions of landless squatters that the new Government did not have free land to give out. Majority of the squatters had been disinherited and displaced by the colonial government as punishment for supporting the Mau mau.
Leading by example, Kenyatta paid for the two parcels of land he had obtained for himself and his son. The amount he paid was a princely sum of Sh5,472. That’s for some 709 acres! Essentially, he was buying each acre for Sh7.70. At least it wasn’t free.
On July 9, 1966, while executing the powers vested in his office, Kenyatta officially transferred the land to himself. The title deed reads in part: ”The President of the Republic of Kenya on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Kenya grant unto His Excellency Mzee Jomo Kenyatta, President of Kenya (Post Office Box 125 Ruiru) the piece of land situated in Nairobi, containing 509 acres Land Reference Number 11493…”
The only condition the “Government” gave to Kenyatta was that the land be used for agricultural purposes only.
Kenyatta would repeat the script on November 14, 1966, and sign off some 200 acres to his beloved son Magana. Documents relating to Magana’s land indicate that the title was freehold. He shared the postal address with his father.
Citing your source @ ndugu Swenani, it is evident the old man actually paid for the land and did not use his powers to grab/allocate himself the land for free. As for people settling on the land, there is no anthropological evidence. Indeed, the land was one massive farm/ranch owned my Macmillan. Tales are told how former US president Rosevelt and other wabeberu used to frequent the ranch for game hunting (a premium luxury up until today not in Kenya but in counties with more wildlife like SA, Zim, Namibia and Botswana). People used to live in Juja. This people were actually his(Macmillan) farm workers from different parts of Kenya and not only folks from central.I concur with @brother Ngalaka that politicking and obsession with politics by the common mwananchi in Kenya has systematically left the common man more poorer.Lamentations such as "Serikali Saidia" and the belief that there is going to come a messiah who will repossess property and re-distribute will only lead to more pooer and more frustrated mwananchi. So as an educated middle class wazuan, i have made a deliberate decision to stop being obsessed with politics of a certain community or certain individuals accumulated wealth and my people or my ancestors were cheated etc, and start accumulating no matter how small or modestly Dumb money becomes dumb only when it listens to smart money
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