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SA: Seizing land from white farmers
Baratang
#51 Posted : Wednesday, April 04, 2018 3:39:07 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 10/6/2009
Posts: 587
masukuma wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
^^from 'Why Nations Fail'?

Very insightful book... some of the theories and questions being asked here are answered. A must read in my opinion! it will contextualize everything. The human is the same animal... and 55 years is nothing... we have been on the planet for 200k years. Secondly... why would independence be used as a marker? a line in the sand? Secondly... who said that all of history is supposed to end up HERE and NOW? no one is marking anything!


Then we should not cry over what has happened to Africa over the last 150 years when your land was being taken.
masukuma
#52 Posted : Wednesday, April 04, 2018 4:30:43 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Baratang wrote:
masukuma wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
^^from 'Why Nations Fail'?

Very insightful book... some of the theories and questions being asked here are answered. A must read in my opinion! it will contextualize everything. The human is the same animal... and 55 years is nothing... we have been on the planet for 200k years. Secondly... why would independence be used as a marker? a line in the sand? Secondly... who said that all of history is supposed to end up HERE and NOW? no one is marking anything!


Then we should not cry over what has happened to Africa over the last 150 years when your land was being taken.

if we can CRY and get something out of it... why not CRY? We are behind - we do all we can to get ahead even if that means guilt tripping others!
My policy is that we don't have to be consistent in anything! we should just do what works in the right time - if crying works and we can get away with it.. DO IT... INCLUDING ditching this 'policy' of mine when it stops working!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#53 Posted : Wednesday, April 04, 2018 10:58:15 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
harrydre wrote:


It's their land. Let it go back to it's rightful owners. They will learn how to farm in any case, just as their ancestors were forced to mine.

Expropriation without compensation.

Let's see how it ends. Me thinks Kenya owes Jomo and his govt for their foresight and not going by this route which was the popular thing to do.

Africans in 1963 wanted all whites expelled from Kenya and all their property taken back. But those were trying times. The economy was declining as the whites had started leaving after Mau Mau insurgency broke out in the 50s. A new wave of emigration started when violence broke out in newly independent Congo(DRC) in 1960.

With these property prices tumbled and the economy contracted as Whites largely controlled the economy. I think there was wisdom in Kenyatta I's govt opting to negotiate the whites out and compensating them to stem a collapse of the economy.

For SA, it is good that they do redistribution but with compensation. Remember these whites have been there since 1652.


Our land problems are precisely because Jomo messed us up royally, while playing up to the British. I say SA is on the right track. Only need to avoid Mugabe pitfalls and they will be fine. How the hell do you watch wazungu making millions from the land they kicked your great grandfather out of and just lie down doing nothing.

2 issues:
1.was it right for Jomo to allow mzungu to sell back land? YES

2. Was Jomo wrong in using SFT money for him and other big boys? YES

Your point is no. 2 above. Any issue with no 1?



@Lolest, what if point 2 caused point 1, would the answers you've given remain the same?
tycho
#54 Posted : Thursday, April 05, 2018 11:22:36 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
It's not true that if the African had superior war capabilities he'd do what the wakoloni did.

To say that would imply a law of necessity but history has examples of the opposite of such a law.

What we have here is a justification of a pro-western propaganda.
tycho
#55 Posted : Thursday, April 05, 2018 11:25:36 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
tom_boy wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
harrydre wrote:


It's their land. Let it go back to it's rightful owners. They will learn how to farm in any case, just as their ancestors were forced to mine.

Expropriation without compensation.

Let's see how it ends. Me thinks Kenya owes Jomo and his govt for their foresight and not going by this route which was the popular thing to do.

Africans in 1963 wanted all whites expelled from Kenya and all their property taken back. But those were trying times. The economy was declining as the whites had started leaving after Mau Mau insurgency broke out in the 50s. A new wave of emigration started when violence broke out in newly independent Congo(DRC) in 1960.

With these property prices tumbled and the economy contracted as Whites largely controlled the economy. I think there was wisdom in Kenyatta I's govt opting to negotiate the whites out and compensating them to stem a collapse of the economy.

For SA, it is good that they do redistribution but with compensation. Remember these whites have been there since 1652.


Our land problems are precisely because Jomo messed us up royally, while playing up to the British. I say SA is on the right track. Only need to avoid Mugabe pitfalls and they will be fine. How the hell do you watch wazungu making millions from the land they kicked your great grandfather out of and just lie down doing nothing.

2 issues:
1.was it right for Jomo to allow mzungu to sell back land? YES

2. Was Jomo wrong in using SFT money for him and other big boys? YES

Your point is no. 2 above. Any issue with no 1?



Did the mzungu buy the land so as to qualify him to sell it back to us? Did he compensate the African for lack of enjoyment of their God given resource before attempting to sell the land back to him? Did the mzungu pay fair wages for black labour so that he can argue that the african can afford to buy back the land? If someone robs you off your car then takes it to the garage and repaints it, fixes tyres and begins to use it, should you then buy it back from him when you finally amass enough power to force him to give it back?
The only thing mzungu had when he came was power of the gun. He used it to amass wealth and impoverish africans. Now,South Africans have political power, they should use it to amass wealth and impoverish their oppressors.
The mzungu is very keen to protect that which is theirs. You have seen it with Trump and with Brexit. Germany is waiting to boil over. We Africans are the fools, wagging our tails at them waiting for handouts. This has to end.


I put it to you that most African tribes are in their current homelands due to superior military power and overcoming their neighbours


Proof? Anyone can put anything to us, but only a proof can convince.
Much Know
#56 Posted : Thursday, April 05, 2018 11:31:21 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,586
tycho wrote:
It's not true that if the African had superior war capabilities he'd do what the wakoloni did.

To say that would imply a law of necessity but history has examples of the opposite of such a law.

What we have here is a justification of a pro-western propaganda.

If they could use "science" to get a former pastor to convince them completely that they are monkey's and of an inferior quality, even their version of history will attempt to drive the reader to a similar conclusion, I say this having read several social science thesis by Kenyans who have been awarded PhD scholarship's to spread witchcraft and sex ritual lies as a blanket practice of pre colonial Kenyans, mostly Rhodes and Fulbright and other similar "project's", and they are lecturers today, watch out!
Ras Kienyeji Man
Much Know
#57 Posted : Thursday, April 05, 2018 11:45:51 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,586
Surprise! We are not monkey's!
Ras Kienyeji Man
masukuma
#58 Posted : Thursday, April 05, 2018 12:50:26 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
The chinese reached the coasts of Africa way before the Europeans - they were on a touristy expedition. The chinese were not competing with anyone, they were just focused on internal matters. The kingdoms of Europe on the other hand were in conflict and were competing with each other - when they came they came to take and build their homes so that they could trump their neighbours. They were not here to see what the Sultan of Malindi had!! they came to take! Let's assume africans developed big boats and sailed around the world, we would only have done to others what was done to us if the competitive spirit was around.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#59 Posted : Thursday, April 05, 2018 1:50:27 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi

All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#60 Posted : Thursday, April 05, 2018 4:20:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
The chinese reached the coasts of Africa way before the Europeans - they were on a touristy expedition. The chinese were not competing with anyone, they were just focused on internal matters. The kingdoms of Europe on the other hand were in conflict and were competing with each other - when they came they came to take and build their homes so that they could trump their neighbours. They were not here to see what the Sultan of Malindi had!! they came to take! Let's assume africans developed big boats and sailed around the world, we would only have done to others what was done to us if the competitive spirit was around.


You'd need to show that 'the competitive spirit' was necessarily in Africa and how empire(s) were created in Africa, if at all there were such things in Africa.

Historical evidence from Africa wouldn't suggest empires built entirely on your prescribed model.

Then you're using vague terms on China's intentions during the Mings. What's to 'take'? Steal?

Apart from that, if such a model of taking would prove to be unsustainable as it's now proving, what alternatives would apply? Is Chinese thought and policy today an alternative to your apparently preferred model?
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