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IMF: Kenya's economy self reliant, don't need EU
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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guru267 wrote:Nabwire wrote:guru267 wrote:dunkang wrote:So, you are saying BAT, Vodafone, diageo, Lafarge collect taxes from their debt ridden economies and give it to KRA?
These firms actually milk our economy.
@dunkang yes these firms milk our economy but do you see any Kenyans setting up rival firms to compete with these guys?? The fact is reliance is not only about aid.. If their governments ban these guys from operating in Kenya who will fill the gap in taxes & services that will arise?? Kwani this CFA is gotten from River Road? What kind of reasoning is this? So you agree that they are milking our economy dry, but then go ahead to give reasons why they should stay and keep milking us, just so they can pay taxes? RETARDED!!! @Nabwire Economics 101: GOK has a budget that is sustained by taxes and borrowing... Currently taxes sustain about 75% - 80% of the budget leaving 20% -25% for borrowing... This was probably why the team thinks Kenya is self sustaining! But I was merely pointing out that the biggest tax payers are foreign multinationals & our dear exporters and the biggest lenders to GOK are foreign banks! Lets not even go into how the clothes on our backs are imported! Lets not even go into how you will not be able to send money home! The big question is who finances the budget when they leave?? Nice rejoinder guru, even in the face of insults. TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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a4architect.com wrote:@Quicksand..do you honestly believe the EU and USA are in this ICC hulabaloo for the good of Kenyans? If so, how come Uhuruto can command over 40% of electorate confidence? How come 40% of middle class tv voters as shown in the last presidential debate support Uhuru? This class is the most educated in Kenya.
The ICC is simply a regime change tool so as to impose leaders who will allow the country's resources to be looted. The more kenya maintains minimal contact with the west, the more our economy improves. No sir, not even for one second. But that does not make me have confidence on candidates, who for all intents and purposes, cannot even demonstrate how they will govern while on trial. I am above all, a pragmatist, like the trader who has to deal with the occasional rude and obnoxious customer because he has a wife and children to feed. We don't have to love the west, but we do need to trade with them. Like with any emotive issue, logic many times takes a back seat. We are stragglers, this economy belongs to us all, it suffers we suffer. Yet we are hellbent on sticking a knife into its ribs for the sake of 2 billionaires who have to get power NOW!!!!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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One day I wish to have your kind of ego. Only that I will die under the weight. Only a FOOL would believe Kenya doesn't need partners/markets for our products. What market does china provide? I'm forced to reply to you coz I cant stand your little informed chest thumping. Kenya needs the whole world, ESP the west. That is where we gain most while the ching chongs milk us dry. FACT. . TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
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hisah wrote:Meanwhile UNEP Nairobi becomes the environment capital of world...
More foreign bank majors opening offices...
More hotel majors setting up... And so forth.
Why are locals just seeing doom & gloom.
They were saying it would be moved to Arusha... 
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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simonkabz wrote:One day I wish to have your kind of ego. Only that I will die under the weight. Only a FOOL would believe Kenya doesn't need partners/markets for our products. What market does china provide? I'm forced to reply to you coz I cant stand your little informed chest thumping. Kenya needs the whole world, ESP the west. That is where we gain most while the ching chongs milk us dry. FACT. . One problem that you have is you dont follow the argument from the beginning (what we call kuingilia ugali bila kunawa mikono)...the issue here is not that Kenya doesn't need the west...no...the issue is that the west needs Kenya just as much as we need them, so this theory being peddled by @guruetcetc....is just her fantasy which she's trying to force into peoples throats. All indications are that the west is setting base here, and you and me don't matter when they're making their decisions...as long as their interests are met. Its not a coincidence that the IMF decided to write the article. May be you should start your thread on how the chings are milking you, because these "Facts" your talking about are not visible "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/13/2011 Posts: 5,964
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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murchr wrote:simonkabz wrote:One day I wish to have your kind of ego. Only that I will die under the weight. Only a FOOL would believe Kenya doesn't need partners/markets for our products. What market does china provide? I'm forced to reply to you coz I cant stand your little informed chest thumping. Kenya needs the whole world, ESP the west. That is where we gain most while the ching chongs milk us dry. FACT. . One problem that you have is you dont follow the argument from the beginning (what we call kuingilia ugali bila kunawa mikono)...the issue here is not that Kenya doesn't need the west...no...the issue is that the west needs Kenya just as much as we need them, so this theory being peddled by @guruetcetc....is just her fantasy which she's trying to force into peoples throats. All indications are that the west is setting base here, and you and me don't matter when they're making their decisions...as long as their interests are met. Its not a coincidence that the IMF decided to write the article. May be you should start your thread on how the chings are milking you, because these "Facts" your talking about are not visible I withdraw. I wouldn't be caught discussing anything with you while you are completely inebriated, or so you sound. I don't understand how basic info could be out of your grasp as concerns china n the west n the kind of trade we are involved in both worlds. This maji maji rebellion of yours remains just that, maji maji rebellion.. TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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simonkabz wrote:murchr wrote:simonkabz wrote:One day I wish to have your kind of ego. Only that I will die under the weight. Only a FOOL would believe Kenya doesn't need partners/markets for our products. What market does china provide? I'm forced to reply to you coz I cant stand your little informed chest thumping. Kenya needs the whole world, ESP the west. That is where we gain most while the ching chongs milk us dry. FACT. . One problem that you have is you dont follow the argument from the beginning (what we call kuingilia ugali bila kunawa mikono)...the issue here is not that Kenya doesn't need the west...no...the issue is that the west needs Kenya just as much as we need them, so this theory being peddled by @guruetcetc....is just her fantasy which she's trying to force into peoples throats. All indications are that the west is setting base here, and you and me don't matter when they're making their decisions...as long as their interests are met. Its not a coincidence that the IMF decided to write the article. May be you should start your thread on how the chings are milking you, because these "Facts" your talking about are not visible I withdraw. I wouldn't be caught discussing anything with you while you are completely inebriated, or so you sound. I don't understand how basic info could be out of your grasp as concerns china n the west n the kind of trade we are involved in both worlds. This maji maji rebellion of yours remains just that, maji maji rebellion.. Who is rebelling? Again you seem to be out of touch.....bye bye "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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new wrote:Very interesting debate going on here. One truth of life is that "Men lie, women lie, but numbers don't ( or they rarely do anyway)"
truth is, most of the country's budgetary expenditure is financed via taxes, exports and debt. so they ( the west ) basically bank roll our economy directly (loans, grants, Tbonds) or indirectly( trade). Its a sad fact of life and can even be termed unfair that their actions affect our lives, but they do. "he who pays the piper calls the tune" .
in fact the current bull run at the NSE, is basically being driven by foreign capital inflows, that should tell us something, right?
my point is this, we need to trade, we need capital, we need them ( the west) just as much as they need us. well, we might say that we dont need them (the West) coz we have got the East ( china, The BRICS etc) but we forget , the BRICS need the west. The west is the BRICS biggest trading partner ( read Market) and if your biggest customer says "NO/YES" i bet you would listen, right?
take away message, "he who pays the piper calls the tune"
Excellent. You put it candidly n objectively. How I wish majimaji could read this real nice n slow, nice n slow baby, go on..... TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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mkeiyd wrote:Liv wrote:Can someone educate me dispassionately how electing Uhuruto will bring US & Europe sanctions against Kenya.
@Liv, Kenyan constitutions gives immunity to a sitting president against prosecution. Once elected, the duo might choose to hide under the constitution,you and i will have no way of stopping them.
They've said they'll continue to cooperate,but are they sitting president/deputy yet? Do we expect them to say the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
I highly doubt. Running the gov't from Hague? How? UK was asked how he plans to run the gov't from the Hague during the debates,instead of answering,he took the cheapest route.
"If Kenyans elect me, then it means they have faith in my ability bla bla bla" Why did he not give the plan?
I've heard people say the bridge will be crossed when we get there. I highly doubt there will be any crossing,thanks to the constitution.
That's HOW sanctions will come. Non-cooperation with the ICC and thereafter, the UN.
@ Nabwire, You send and can send your ATM home because the US gov't lets you. Talk to any Cuban/Venezuelan you might come across. Having said that, i don't think the US gov't will bother with Kenyan remittances.
About multinationals operating in Kenya,we like crying "they milk us". I say they don't. They are investors just like us the locals. If they milk us,then we should try looking/marketing ourselves for FDI. Do you believe the Swedish furniture manufacturing in the US is milking Americans?Is Toyota milking Americans?
The point is, we have four factors of production, only one factor's reward goes to the investor's bank account,PROFITS and most of the time, not all of it. What is the share of profits compared to total revenue?
Now compare the profits to rents/rates, taxes,wages and salaries and other variable costs of production?
Don't look at TAXES only,look at all the other rewards to the other factors of production.
Kenya benefits more from BAT than the shareholders. If BAT closes shop,the shareholders loss would be a drop in the sea compared to the farmers,the suppliers,the employees even without thinking of the gov't.Multinationals in Kenya are NOT going to close. However,
with sanctions,it won't be business as usual.
We export apparels to US favorably thanks to AGOA,with sanctions, kiss market away.
We export horticultural produce to EU ,with sanctions,that market might be lost.
Kenya exhibits tourism in any fora we can lay hands on world wide,with sanctions,that won't be the case meaning lower tourist arrivals.
If we cannot get hard currencies from exports and tourism,how are we gonna import oil,machinery and farm inputs? Drugs? Military ware etc etc?
Without oil,farm inputs and machinery,how can we manufacture? Without drugs, we are a sick nation.
Anyone can talk about BRICS,i ask, when was the last time anyone here bought an air ticket,imported machinery or quoted exports in Yuan or Rand?Bottom line is we need the West,more than they need us. The West can keep on typing their keyboards without importing anything Kenyan,the line you are about to type has some ware from the West. If only we could use our minds,build our economy and maybe,in 30 years time,we can start punching with the heavy weights. For now, Kenya is in the feather weight club,how well are we to square it with heavy weights,NOW! I take a bow. That is it. It's mere common sense that we need them. Some guys have attached too much importance to kenya, a shithole by their standards. They don't give a damn about our impoverised country. They don't really need us, n we CANNOT SURVIVE without them. And they know. We don't, that's y we beat our chests sore how great kenya is. ....crap. Did I hear pple say multinationals milk us? And I ask, what exactly do they understand by FDI? TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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a4architect.com wrote:The more kenya maintains minimal contact with the west, the more our economy improves. @wazua how may any reasonable individual respond to this statement?? Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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Mkeiyd after rereading your post, I can conclude that you are a defeatist. You are running scared coz of what the west will do to Kenya, yet the west has repeatedly said they will uphold elections results if they are free and fair. What you are basically asking us, is to accept neocolonialism, in a gracious manner. I will let you know that the west has never acted out of generosity, if they act, its because it serves their interests. So saying that western companies in Kenya are basically there because they are benevolent is a bit of a stretch. Im curious to see a factual case of how " Kenya benefits more from BAT than shareholders"? Corporations only set up shop to maximize profits, if there are no profits, they close shop. Its in Kenya's best interests to have friendly relations with the west, but it is in the west's interests even more to retain Kenya as an ally. Kenya is strategically located and the West is doing everything in its power to ensure that Kenya does not forge lasting ties with China. Also Kenya just discovered oil, it would be unwise of the west to cut ties with Kenya, coz even though they may not need the oil, they wouldnt want China to have a controlling stake of it. We are in arguably the contemporary form of gold rush, with China and the US fighting over African resources, but Africans have no clue of the power they hold, and would rather dance along to yester years propaganda. The world has moved on, its time our thinking also moved on. Unless you are asking us to accept the position of always being a recepient, your argument makes no sense. We have begged for aid all these years, yet the common man's life has not improved, now you are asking us not to anger the west, just so we can continue getting aid. Please read Dead Aid, and then contemplate on the fact that oil has been discovered in Kenya. Why beg for breadcrumbs when you can now bake your own bread? http://www.cbc.ca/passio...day/feature_171207.html
http://www.google.com/ur...3VQExB5gAJKRTAvWfNfyMOQ
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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Nabwire wrote:Mkeiyd after rereading your post, I can conclude that you are a defeatist. You are running scared coz of what the west will do to Kenya, yet the west has repeatedly said they will uphold elections results if they are free and fair. What you are basically asking us, is to accept neocolonialism, in a gracious manner. I will let you know that the west has never acted out of generosity, if they act, its because it serves their interests. So saying that western companies in Kenya are basically there because they are benevolent is a bit of a stretch. Im curious to see a factual case of how " Kenya benefits more from BAT than shareholders"? Corporations only set up shop to maximize profits, if there are no profits, they close shop. Its in Kenya's best interests to have friendly relations with the west, but it is in the west's interests even more to retain Kenya as an ally. Kenya is strategically located and the West is doing everything in its power to ensure that Kenya does not forge lasting ties with China. Also Kenya just discovered oil, it would be unwise of the west to cut ties with Kenya, coz even though they may not need the oil, they wouldnt want China to have a controlling stake of it. We are in arguably the contemporary form of gold rush, with China and the US fighting over African resources, but Africans have no clue of the power they hold, and would rather dance along to yester years propaganda. The world has moved on, its time our thinking also moved on. Unless you are asking us to accept the position of always being a recepient, your argument makes no sense. We have begged for aid all these years, yet the common man's life has not improved, now you are asking us not to anger the west, just so we can continue getting aid. Please read Dead Aid, and then contemplate on the fact that oil has been discovered in Kenya. Why beg for breadcrumbs when you can now bake your own bread? http://www.cbc.ca/passio...day/feature_171207.html
http://www.google.com/ur...3VQExB5gAJKRTAvWfNfyMOQ
Excellent...well said. One very unfortunate thing that colonization did to us was not to believe in ourselves. The Chinese refused to be belittled look at them now. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/16/2011 Posts: 196 Location: united states of africa
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murchr wrote:Nabwire wrote:Mkeiyd after rereading your post, I can conclude that you are a defeatist. You are running scared coz of what the west will do to Kenya, yet the west has repeatedly said they will uphold elections results if they are free and fair. What you are basically asking us, is to accept neocolonialism, in a gracious manner. I will let you know that the west has never acted out of generosity, if they act, its because it serves their interests. So saying that western companies in Kenya are basically there because they are benevolent is a bit of a stretch. Im curious to see a factual case of how " Kenya benefits more from BAT than shareholders"? Corporations only set up shop to maximize profits, if there are no profits, they close shop. Its in Kenya's best interests to have friendly relations with the west, but it is in the west's interests even more to retain Kenya as an ally. Kenya is strategically located and the West is doing everything in its power to ensure that Kenya does not forge lasting ties with China. Also Kenya just discovered oil, it would be unwise of the west to cut ties with Kenya, coz even though they may not need the oil, they wouldnt want China to have a controlling stake of it. We are in arguably the contemporary form of gold rush, with China and the US fighting over African resources, but Africans have no clue of the power they hold, and would rather dance along to yester years propaganda. The world has moved on, its time our thinking also moved on. Unless you are asking us to accept the position of always being a recepient, your argument makes no sense. We have begged for aid all these years, yet the common man's life has not improved, now you are asking us not to anger the west, just so we can continue getting aid. Please read Dead Aid, and then contemplate on the fact that oil has been discovered in Kenya. Why beg for breadcrumbs when you can now bake your own bread? http://www.cbc.ca/passio...day/feature_171207.html
http://www.google.com/ur...3VQExB5gAJKRTAvWfNfyMOQ
Excellent...well said. One very unfortunate thing that colonization did to us was not to believe in ourselves. The Chinese refused to be belittled look at them now. It all has to do with Psychology. Teach a people to be proud of themselves, that they are superior, talented and give them a white jesus etc and that's what they are going to believe but with Africa, its worship the west. Pathetic. Anyways, for those who got ideas especially technological ideas, let me know. I can either buy your idea and patent it somewhere else, then set shop in Kenya or fund your idea 100% as long as I get my money back plus the profits. Energy.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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Sad sad sad. What the eastern propagandists haven't yet gotten is, we are not kissing mzungu's butt, and we are not begging for aid though we need it anyway, but we cannot cut off a critical market for our produce just to be FREE! FREE? In the modern world? Btw, FREE FROM WHAT? I would unequivocally state that no country is free in this planet. Listening to the chest thumpers' hubris is very interesting. One of the largest trading partners for china n BRICS is the west. If the chinese didn't cut off their ties with the west, who are we? Is Kenya greater than S. Korea? Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, China? Cut the cheap braggadocio people, and stop twisting the truth. And if the plan by uhuruto is to isolate us from this market, then they should be jailed. But I'm sure they know better than many wazuans not to upset the master. They won't. In fact, they will be ridden like horses coz for a fact, they badly need the west, who will capitalise on their ICC woes to get what they want. Or nabwire n maji maji want to tell us uhuruto want to fail in their leadership? I don't think so. The west largely earns kenya foreign exchange. China DRAINS it with the unfavourable balance of trade in products that eventually kill our local firms, including TOOTHPICKS!!!. Not many pple understand how the world works today it seems, and that Globalization means nyet to them chest beaters. This education system of ours needs a complete overhaul. My final question, have these thumpers ever given zimbabwe a thought? Why are they in the doldrums? Why hadn't china or the BRICS lifted the shithole up? A section of the govt was sanctioned, and the whole country went up in flames. They seem to enjoy it though, and seemingly, educated kenyans envy them. TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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Simon wewe husaidiki, ati free from what? Yours is not even neocolonialism, you want us to go back to the dark days of slavery. And this is not about east or west, its about knowing what power you possess and using it to your advantage. And quit with the often cited propaganda of China and BRICS do business with the west, ofcourse they do, but they do it on their terms, no one is advocating for cutting off the west. I'd suggest you read a couple of books on how this game is played, or at the very least take an intro IR class. Just cool down and ask yourself why would kasin Barry devote his very precious time to make a video addressing Kenyan voters.Why would the leader of the free world waste his time talking to Kenyan voters? If you think the US will let Kenya fall exclusively into the hands of China, you should think again.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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simonkabz wrote:Sad sad sad.
What the eastern propagandists haven't yet gotten is, we are not kissing mzungu's butt, and we are not begging for aid though we need it anyway, but we cannot cut off a critical market for our produce just to be FREE! FREE? In the modern world? Btw, FREE FROM WHAT? I would unequivocally state that no country is free in this planet. Listening to the chest thumpers' hubris is very interesting. One of the largest trading partners for china n BRICS is the west. If the chinese didn't cut off their ties with the west, who are we? Is Kenya greater than S. Korea? Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, China? Cut the cheap braggadocio people, and stop twisting the truth. And if the plan by uhuruto is to isolate us from this market, then they should be jailed. But I'm sure they know better than many wazuans not to upset the master. They won't. In fact, they will be ridden like horses coz for a fact, they badly need the west, who will capitalise on their ICC woes to get what they want. Or nabwire n maji maji want to tell us uhuruto want to fail in their leadership? I don't think so.
The west largely earns kenya foreign exchange. China DRAINS it with the unfavourable balance of trade in products that eventually kill our local firms, including TOOTHPICKS!!!. Not many pple understand how the world works today it seems, and that Globalization means nyet to them chest beaters. This education system of ours needs a complete overhaul.
My final question, have these thumpers ever given zimbabwe a thought? Why are they in the doldrums? Why hadn't china or the BRICS lifted the shithole up? A section of the govt was sanctioned, and the whole country went up in flames. They seem to enjoy it though, and seemingly, educated kenyans envy them.  I have some stats here from our very own Bureau of Statistics. http://www.knbs.or.ke/trade_balance.php
In '000 In '000 ______________ Exports(2010)___Imports(2010)___Balance(2010) Canada____________1,169,832_______7,067,926______(5,898,094) USA______________22,522,182______39,315,581_____(16,793,398) Western Europe 100,122,690_____176,205,709_____(76,083,019) China_____________2,511,547_____120,648,247____(118,136,700) We exported a paltry 2.5 billion worth of Kenyan produce to our steadfast friends the Chinese  importing a massive 120B, resulting in a crushing 118 billion balance of trade. The 2.5 billion export figure we achieved with the Chinese clearly is much better,..by leaps and bounds, than the 123.8 billion we managed to export to the Americas and Western Europe by some reasoning around here. Also, the 118 billion trade deficit with China alone surpasses the 98 billion deficit with the West. Isn't that awesome?? NKT.  Little knowledge is truly dangerous
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/26/2007 Posts: 6,514
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^^^^^^ Quicksand, there are no lies in mathematics. Its so good to see people approach this issue with statistics, rather than tribal goggles. China has 250M, yes 250 million people BELOW the poverty line. A country that cannot feed its own is going to come feed you?? Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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Good Lord Almighty, have some pride!!Grown men wondering how China will feed you?? You have oil now for Christs sake, grab the opportunity!!! Wacha nikalale coz enyewe there's someone who once said that often times liberated slaves will demand to go back to their masters coz atleast at the masters house, they will be fed. Lemme let you guys wallow in your ignorance, then 10 years later,you'll be crying about how Kenya is so unfair, only the rich get opportunities, then you wonder why these junguus look down on you.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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KulaRaha wrote:^^^^^^
Quicksand, there are no lies in mathematics.
Its so good to see people approach this issue with statistics, rather than tribal goggles.
China has 250M, yes 250 million people BELOW the poverty line. A country that cannot feed its own is going to come feed you?? Numbers dont lie....indeed the west does need us...so those dreaming of sanctions should snap out of it How about FDI? http://www.businessdaily...8/-/1lnvlmz/-/index.html"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
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