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Ocampo Strikes...ICC summons the SIX.
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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Several mps led by Cherangany Mp Joshua Kutuny urge the ICC to speed up the Ocampo six cases before 2012 ****** The mps say the move ...will give a chance to those implicated to be cleared and participate in the elections ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/19/2008 Posts: 4,268
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masukuma wrote:the journey is long - its a summons to attend pre-trial hearings, before the trial.
Its going to be very long trial, plus the court can decide at any one point to throw out the case. I suspect PEV victims may not get justice in this manner since most of the evidence is quite circumstantial and really feeble - imagine accusing Major General Ali with Rape and murder coz he did not stop the Mungiki and with murder because he stopped those those in Mathare, Kibera and Kisumu. @Masukuma, i think the argument will be the same as those of Sadam, El Bashir, and the guy who was still fathering while there.....(i forget). I doubt any of these took a gun and shot anyone. but they were in power to order and stop the shootings but they did not. Either, because they were benefiting from it, or someone else was. In Ali's case, they could argue that he had the mandate over the police force.... he would have stopped the "shoot to kill" order of unarmed civilians.... The issue usually is, did you have the power to do something about it and was it your responsibility to do something about it and you did not, or were your 'failures' to act done to benefit/injure someone else.... i think that might be the line of argument and not necessarily that he committed the actual crime himself... for example, if i sent my beautiful underage daughter to go and steal, dont you think i will be the one to answer to the judge and not her? If she is of age, i will be an accomplice..... either way, it will still get back to me..... (argued from a layman's point of view).
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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Wendz wrote:masukuma wrote:the journey is long - its a summons to attend pre-trial hearings, before the trial.
Its going to be very long trial, plus the court can decide at any one point to throw out the case. I suspect PEV victims may not get justice in this manner since most of the evidence is quite circumstantial and really feeble - imagine accusing Major General Ali with Rape and murder coz he did not stop the Mungiki and with murder because he stopped those those in Mathare, Kibera and Kisumu. @Masukuma, i think the argument will be the same as those of Sadam, El Bashir, and the guy who was still fathering while there.....(i forget). I doubt any of these took a gun and shot anyone. but they were in power to order and stop the shootings but they did not. Either, because they were benefiting from it, or someone else was. In Ali's case, they could argue that he had the mandate over the police force.... he would have stopped the "shoot to kill" order of unarmed civilians.... The issue usually is, did you have the power to do something about it and was it your responsibility to do something about it and you did not, or were your 'failures' to act done to benefit/injure someone else.... i think that might be the line of argument and not necessarily that he committed the actual crime himself... for example, if i sent my beautiful underage daughter to go and steal, dont you think i will be the one to answer to the judge and not her? If she is of age, i will be an accomplice..... either way, it will still get back to me..... (argued from a layman's point of view). Probably not!!! You commit a crime by playing an ACTIVE role. Some active roles may take a form of an hidden hand - say you sat in a meeting to plan a crime but didnt participate in the actual killing! You can not commit a crime by FAILING TO DO ABC!!! It is important to differentiate ABETTING and failing to do. In failing to do, you may have tried and got overwhelmed, or you simply werent aware. Sleeping on the job isnt a crime - may be a moral/ethical wrong! El bashir, Milosevic and Taylor ordered their armed men to act as they acted, - commit crimes. Ali ordered his police to quell violent riots/crime (looting and evicting people forcibly) If any police did other things outside the legitimate orders, he is individually liable!! If that police or anybody else can demonstrate that Ali ordered them to shoot idiscriminately, then Ali will have a case to answer. Again if there is evidence that Ali met others people to strategise on how to facilitate Mungiki to go and commit crime, then again he is in for it. The burden of proof is with Ocampo. Lets wait and see what he's got. Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/26/2009 Posts: 1,793
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McReggae wrote:Several mps led by Cherangany Mp Joshua Kutuny urge the ICC to speed up the Ocampo six cases before 2012 ****** The mps say the move ...will give a chance to those implicated to be cleared and participate in the elections they should continue dreaming. Bure kabisa
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/29/2008 Posts: 1,566
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Ngalaka wrote:Wendz wrote:masukuma wrote:the journey is long - its a summons to attend pre-trial hearings, before the trial.
Its going to be very long trial, plus the court can decide at any one point to throw out the case. I suspect PEV victims may not get justice in this manner since most of the evidence is quite circumstantial and really feeble - imagine accusing Major General Ali with Rape and murder coz he did not stop the Mungiki and with murder because he stopped those those in Mathare, Kibera and Kisumu. @Masukuma, i think the argument will be the same as those of Sadam, El Bashir, and the guy who was still fathering while there.....(i forget). I doubt any of these took a gun and shot anyone. but they were in power to order and stop the shootings but they did not. Either, because they were benefiting from it, or someone else was. In Ali's case, they could argue that he had the mandate over the police force.... he would have stopped the "shoot to kill" order of unarmed civilians.... The issue usually is, did you have the power to do something about it and was it your responsibility to do something about it and you did not, or were your 'failures' to act done to benefit/injure someone else.... i think that might be the line of argument and not necessarily that he committed the actual crime himself... for example, if i sent my beautiful underage daughter to go and steal, dont you think i will be the one to answer to the judge and not her? If she is of age, i will be an accomplice..... either way, it will still get back to me..... (argued from a layman's point of view). Probably not!!! You commit a crime by playing an ACTIVE role. Some active roles may take a form of an hidden hand - say you sat in a meeting to plan a crime but didnt participate in the actual killing! You can not commit a crime by FAILING TO DO ABC!!! It is important to differentiate ABETTING and failing to do. In failing to do, you may have tried and got overwhelmed, or you simply werent aware. Sleeping on the job isnt a crime - may be a moral/ethical wrong! El bashir, Milosevic and Taylor ordered their armed men to act as they acted, - commit crimes. Ali ordered his police to quell violent riots/crime (looting and evicting people forcibly) If any police did other things outside the legitimate orders, he is individually liable!! If that police or anybody else can demonstrate that Ali ordered them to shoot idiscriminately, then Ali will have a case to answer. Again if there is evidence that Ali met others people to strategise on how to facilitate Mungiki to go and commit crime, then again he is in for it. The burden of proof is with Ocampo. Lets wait and see what he's got. What are we seeing! Is Ali slowly but surely getting dis-entangled! http://www.nation.co.ke/...86/-/8v6q1/-/index.html
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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Ngalaka wrote:Ngalaka wrote:Wendz wrote:masukuma wrote:the journey is long - its a summons to attend pre-trial hearings, before the trial.
Its going to be very long trial, plus the court can decide at any one point to throw out the case. I suspect PEV victims may not get justice in this manner since most of the evidence is quite circumstantial and really feeble - imagine accusing Major General Ali with Rape and murder coz he did not stop the Mungiki and with murder because he stopped those those in Mathare, Kibera and Kisumu. @Masukuma, i think the argument will be the same as those of Sadam, El Bashir, and the guy who was still fathering while there.....(i forget). I doubt any of these took a gun and shot anyone. but they were in power to order and stop the shootings but they did not. Either, because they were benefiting from it, or someone else was. In Ali's case, they could argue that he had the mandate over the police force.... he would have stopped the "shoot to kill" order of unarmed civilians.... The issue usually is, did you have the power to do something about it and was it your responsibility to do something about it and you did not, or were your 'failures' to act done to benefit/injure someone else.... i think that might be the line of argument and not necessarily that he committed the actual crime himself... for example, if i sent my beautiful underage daughter to go and steal, dont you think i will be the one to answer to the judge and not her? If she is of age, i will be an accomplice..... either way, it will still get back to me..... (argued from a layman's point of view). Probably not!!! You commit a crime by playing an ACTIVE role. Some active roles may take a form of an hidden hand - say you sat in a meeting to plan a crime but didnt participate in the actual killing! You can not commit a crime by FAILING TO DO ABC!!! It is important to differentiate ABETTING and failing to do. In failing to do, you may have tried and got overwhelmed, or you simply werent aware. Sleeping on the job isnt a crime - may be a moral/ethical wrong! El bashir, Milosevic and Taylor ordered their armed men to act as they acted, - commit crimes. Ali ordered his police to quell violent riots/crime (looting and evicting people forcibly) If any police did other things outside the legitimate orders, he is individually liable!! If that police or anybody else can demonstrate that Ali ordered them to shoot idiscriminately, then Ali will have a case to answer. Again if there is evidence that Ali met others people to strategise on how to facilitate Mungiki to go and commit crime, then again he is in for it. The burden of proof is with Ocampo. Lets wait and see what he's got. What are we seeing! Is Ali slowly but surely getting dis-entangled! http://www.nation.co.ke/...86/-/8v6q1/-/index.html
Evidence against Ali seems lightweight. The flipside against Ocampo...what if Major General Ali actually does have evidence of giving instructions to deal with Mungiki or 'armed civilians'?  ...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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Has anyone noticed that all our "political Bigwigs" from both ODM and PNU have gone silent over the current ICC developments?...lots of secret night meetings are in the offing....strategies and counter strategies are being laid...Ocampo must have touched "some raw nerves"....... ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/12/2009 Posts: 925
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.......there is this cop who shot dead and kicked some 2 demonstrators in Kisumu.....he was later arrested and arraigned in court.
....there is the other tape of a Gsu guy pleading with demonstrators not to burn Kenya.
....i would carry both tapes to the Hague,wouldn't you?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/30/2009 Posts: 1,390
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I agree with masukuma on this one. Unless there is evidence that Ali ordered police to shoot indiscriminately at peaceful crowds and also that he gave orders to them to co-operate with mungiki, he is as good as free. Again, I like the argument of how police treated complaints of Eldoret victims. There were reports of them taunting the victims with the 'kazi iendelee' slogan when they reported. Then I feel police were largely in good restraint. Ali could show footage of police blocking demonstrators peacefully at uhuru park and other venues. They were even pleading with Kenyans to be peaceful! Also let's not forget that a good number of police shootings were meted on armed goons- robbers, rapists, arsonists and other social misfits whose deaths probably saved many others from misery and death. Hussein Ali does not deserve to be on that list. What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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The decorated general has "rape" charges over his head. Totally preposterous. Ocampo is just sick. TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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