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M7 Social Media TAX -Excellent
Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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https://newrepublic.com/...ertising-facebook-googleThey must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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tom_boy wrote:murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:murchr wrote:tom_boy wrote:timuka2 wrote:Interesting debate!
Taxing FB would definitely be a toll order. However, could it be viewed as follows.
FB is a US based service provider and therefore paying taxes in the US. The Kenya based user of FB is an importer of a service provided by a US based company via a digital channel. The data charges by the Kenya based telcos to the FB user is therefore equivalent to shipping costs. The telcos are therefore taxed in their own right as "shipping agents" since data is one of their revenue/profit channels which are subject to tax.
As the user, you are importing and consuming a service from a US based company, FB, and therefore citizen bound to pay import duty tax just like any other importer of goods and services. I agree with you on the end user paying. But I still feel FB benefits unfairly from the data collected from collective Kenyans. The methodology of making FB to pay may be fuzzy but from a philosophical point of view they should pay. Govt should impose a tax and work on collecting it. Just like we did with free primary education and NHIF. Declare then work out the nitty gritty. Do you use fb? If so how do they benefit from the data you gave them? I don't. However, the data is useful to them when it comes to targeted advertisement. Most people think they are in control of their purchasing habits. This is far from the truth. Advertising and marketing has the ability to shift spending habits of a whole community. With your data, facebook can connect you directly with people selling things you would be likely to buy. Advertising creates the psychological need for the product then you go off and buy it. They dont take your data and "target market" What you do when you like those pages is just define what you are to them(Male, age, likes sports, likes Adidas, then gauge the number of times you login and the amount of time you spend there). You GIVE THEM YOUR DATA. Then they reach out to the marketers who have existing FB profiles (participants on this notice board IN THEIR COUNTRY OF RESIDENCY EU and US) and tell these people, hey...x number of people like what you do. For a fee would you like us to show them what you sell? If they agree everyone liking Adidas gets an advert placed by the side of their profile. You as a user, you are under no obligation to view the ad or click on the link, if you are REALLY interested, you may click to see what its about, otherwise its a choice. Not like TV where you have no choice. So even Tomboy in Kenya who happens to like Adidas on FB may have a link showing "new world cup ball on sale" on the side of his page. If tomboy decides to click on the link, then he is directed to the Adidas page showing the ball. If he decides to purchase the ball...he'll pay taxes in US and any other custom taxes that arise when the ball gets in Kenya. In short FB is like your online TV which is accessible everywhere, if I happen to watch a commercial on NTV live or Citizen Live while in China, the Chinese have no right to show up at Nation center demanding some tax. So FB is an enabler in Ecommerce, not really a shop, everyone wanting services from FB are purchasing the service from California, you just have access. That's the simplified version they would have you believe. If that was the case why do they require all those permissions. Why were they accused in meddling in elections. How does FB establish and save/record my political affiliations. Why do they do social experiments on users without their consent. Why are other sites like gmail accused of scanning private email. Why do they need to do all these things if all FB is waiting for is for me to click and give them more info on myself. Your explanation is too simplistic. FB collects data on your location, can gauge your income level, knows what phone you are using, what sites you are visiting, your phone contacts, etc, so much more info than you voluntarily give when you sign up. It uses this info to specifically tailor advertising to you based on your location and expressed and not so obviously expressed preferences. Dude am trying to come down to your level and chew this thing to explain what FB is. I do not think you even understand what you posted up there. Do not take the words of writers too seriously they can over hype something esp if they themselves do not understand it. Facebook does carry out social experiments so that they can understand how users use their platform, you say without their consent really? How many people read the fine details on the terms of service? Many just click "I accept" without reading what they are clicking. So yes, facebook users accept to participate on social experiments that FB thinks will make their experience on the site better. We here at Wazua keep drumming at admins door telling her to add the like button dont we? If admin was proactive should be placing these likes, emojis etc to see how well we receive them then implement. If FB didn't do this, they would die just like myspace. Gmail was scanning private email to create profiles for their users but they announced that they will stop that, ofcourse because they have other ways of getting this info. Google has confessed that they got into the Social media space abit late so I guess they envy FB's strategy Facebook collects data on your location if you allow them (choice) like every app there. They have no way of gauging your income - I think linkedin is the one that can do this from data they have collected online. Yes they know the phone you are using out of the capabilities and capacity you have(they have Facebook Lite for those who have EXTREMELY poor data connections and low end phones aka kabambes..actually, depending on what your phone connects to 2G, 3G 4G, Facebook readjusts to give you the best experience for your phone. The sites you visit are stored in your cookies...those do not belong to FB but your computer or phone, if you cleared them they wouldnt know what sites you visit. Another thing, if you decided to log into FB using the incognito mode, they still wouldn't know what sites you visit. But then again, why would you care so much about that? By they way, targeted advertising happens everywhere everyday and its here to stay. The reason we see adverts showing household items(cooking fat, soap, etc) between 7-9pm is because most women are seated watching those mexican soaps. The beer adverts come in later. Google uses your cookies. If in your cookie folder you have porn sites , google will show you where you can purchase lingerie or better still where the next "massage parlor is". Now FB has taken it to the next level, all the infor they have on you is voluntarily given, (from profile buildup to the stuff you like, pages you follow, groups you belong to, political views you believe in and by the way there no Jubilee or Nasa, its just Rep or Dem - totally American) they package and sell to advertisers, these advertisers then reach to you using FB...(NOTE:transactions are taking place in California) On their books they will indicate the $amount they received from Ads and pay a tax on it. Now if Jumia Kenya paid FB to target all those who follow and like them they have sourced the Ads service from a company abroad their ads will be shown to everyone irregardless of where you are. Its just smart really nothing personal. That link you've posted is written by someone who either is experiencing extreme paranoia or is totally blind to the reality. Another thing is he could be out looking for hits, the article was written when Mark was testifying before congress, all Americans cared for then was the sharing of data...I see the site is asking me to switch on my cookies so that they can advertise to me , the irony. If what Zucks is doing was illegal he'd be in jail. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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Facebook is a company. It needs to make profits. It's chosen a business model. You decide whether you want to be party to it or not. You use Facebook and you get ads (you can switch off targeted ads). That's how they make their money. It's like NTV, Citizens or radio jambo. They have to sell ads to pay all those people who work for them. Sijui kiwaru inatoka wapi because they figured out a way to make money. Kama you feel the cost of your data being used to sell ads outweighs the value you get from Facebook - quit. Delete your data. Those features are there. But you don't get to tell them what business model they should use. It's a free world. If you feel that many people would pay subscriptions and keep a social network afloat - why not build one. See how that works. But you don't get to tell people how to run their businesses - that's what the law is there for. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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@muchr and @ masukuma, I think your views of FB and what it can do are overly simplistic. You also lack a grasp of what true giving of consent really entails. Most people sign up on these sites without a clue as to what they are giving up to enjoy the service. To an individual, it's nothing. To a State, the collective data of its citizens is valuable. It should be monetised and the way to do it is demand a fee for FB ET al to operate in our Jurisdiction. It's not true that since FB is in US then other jurisdictions cannot decide how it operates within their jurisdictions. China has blocked FB and other sites for yrs. Does not matter whether individuals get panya routes to access it. What matters is the policy in place and the majority who will be affected by the policy. It does not matter that no current law or mechanism provides for FB to pay a fee. Laws and mechanisms are created. In summary 1. FB takes away valuable data on a countries citizenry and uses it for profit. The country as a whole needs to benefit also. 2. It's a lie that FB cannot be taxed. No one is brave enough to try. 3. It's a lie that the individual is sorely responsible in the act of accessing FB. That the individual has 'travelled'to US to use FB. FB and other websites have by default made themselves available/ reachable from worldwide. They can limit their accessibility in certain areas if they so wish. They can be made to limit their accessibility in certain areas if they don't pay a fee. 4. It's a lie that one voluntarily gives data to FB. Most people have no idea what they are giving up. 5. You need to polish up your knowledge on what targeted advertising is and how your data is used in influencing your day to day choices. https://www.google.com/a...ebook-instagram-photos/
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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tom_boy wrote:@muchr and @ masukuma, I think your views of FB and what it can do are overly simplistic. You also lack a grasp of what true giving of consent really entails. Most people sign up on these sites without a clue as to what they are giving up to enjoy the service. To an individual, it's nothing. To a State, the collective data of its citizens is valuable. It should be monetised and the way to do it is demand a fee for FB ET al to operate in our Jurisdiction. It's not true that since FB is in US then other jurisdictions cannot decide how it operates within their jurisdictions. China has blocked FB and other sites for yrs. Does not matter whether individuals get panya routes to access it. What matters is the policy in place and the majority who will be affected by the policy. It does not matter that no current law or mechanism provides for FB to pay a fee. Laws and mechanisms are created. In summary 1. FB takes away valuable data on a countries citizenry and uses it for profit. The country as a whole needs to benefit also. 2. It's a lie that FB cannot be taxed. No one is brave enough to try. 3. It's a lie that the individual is sorely responsible in the act of accessing FB. That the individual has 'travelled'to US to use FB. FB and other websites have by default made themselves available/ reachable from worldwide. They can limit their accessibility in certain areas if they so wish. They can be made to limit their accessibility in certain areas if they don't pay a fee. 4. It's a lie that one voluntarily gives data to FB. Most people have no idea what they are giving up. 5. You need to polish up your knowledge on what targeted advertising is and how your data is used in influencing your day to day choices. https://www.google.com/a...ebook-instagram-photos/
You know nothing about the internet. First start by educating yourself on that then show up here with valid points. Repeating the same thing over does not make it correct. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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tom_boy wrote:@muchr and @ masukuma, I think your views of FB and what it can do are overly simplistic. You also lack a grasp of what true giving of consent really entails. Most people sign up on these sites without a clue as to what they are giving up to enjoy the service. To an individual, it's nothing. To a State, the collective data of its citizens is valuable. It should be monetised and the way to do it is demand a fee for FB ET al to operate in our Jurisdiction. It's not true that since FB is in US then other jurisdictions cannot decide how it operates within their jurisdictions. China has blocked FB and other sites for yrs. Does not matter whether individuals get panya routes to access it. What matters is the policy in place and the majority who will be affected by the policy. It does not matter that no current law or mechanism provides for FB to pay a fee. Laws and mechanisms are created. In summary 1. FB takes away valuable data on a countries citizenry and uses it for profit. The country as a whole needs to benefit also. 2. It's a lie that FB cannot be taxed. No one is brave enough to try. 3. It's a lie that the individual is sorely responsible in the act of accessing FB. That the individual has 'travelled'to US to use FB. FB and other websites have by default made themselves available/ reachable from worldwide. They can limit their accessibility in certain areas if they so wish. They can be made to limit their accessibility in certain areas if they don't pay a fee. 4. It's a lie that one voluntarily gives data to FB. Most people have no idea what they are giving up. 5. You need to polish up your knowledge on what targeted advertising is and how your data is used in influencing your day to day choices. https://www.google.com/a...ebook-instagram-photos/
I think we have exhausted ourselves trying to educate you. Take away points 1) Facebook gives you value - that is why people go there everyday. they buy data to go there because they accrue value so the notion of facebook profiting. 2) No one forces you not to read the terms and conditions. you are shown and you don't care and move on - hiyo ni shauri yako. 3) China has blocked facebook for censorship reasons. The state there knows that they need to prevent people from really questioning their existence - what's the expression "If you could make God bleed, people would cease to believe in Him". Same with the state. Juzi they banned HBO because John Oliver made Xi Jinping look like Winne the Pooh 4) Facebook or any other company doesn't have to lift a finger to please you or your state especially if you are inconsequential. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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I think I also need some face book education. Yeah and some enlightenment on taxation.
My three questions are:
1. Is there something like distributed manufacture/production?
2. If #1 is there, how is an entity involved in such production taxed, especially when the production facilities are in different nations?
3. Is face book an example of a distributed manufacturing company?
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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masukuma wrote:tom_boy wrote:@muchr and @ masukuma, I think your views of FB and what it can do are overly simplistic. You also lack a grasp of what true giving of consent really entails. Most people sign up on these sites without a clue as to what they are giving up to enjoy the service. To an individual, it's nothing. To a State, the collective data of its citizens is valuable. It should be monetised and the way to do it is demand a fee for FB ET al to operate in our Jurisdiction. It's not true that since FB is in US then other jurisdictions cannot decide how it operates within their jurisdictions. China has blocked FB and other sites for yrs. Does not matter whether individuals get panya routes to access it. What matters is the policy in place and the majority who will be affected by the policy. It does not matter that no current law or mechanism provides for FB to pay a fee. Laws and mechanisms are created. In summary 1. FB takes away valuable data on a countries citizenry and uses it for profit. The country as a whole needs to benefit also. 2. It's a lie that FB cannot be taxed. No one is brave enough to try. 3. It's a lie that the individual is sorely responsible in the act of accessing FB. That the individual has 'travelled'to US to use FB. FB and other websites have by default made themselves available/ reachable from worldwide. They can limit their accessibility in certain areas if they so wish. They can be made to limit their accessibility in certain areas if they don't pay a fee. 4. It's a lie that one voluntarily gives data to FB. Most people have no idea what they are giving up. 5. You need to polish up your knowledge on what targeted advertising is and how your data is used in influencing your day to day choices. https://www.google.com/a...ebook-instagram-photos/
I think we have exhausted ourselves trying to educate you. Take away points 1) Facebook gives you value - that is why people go there everyday. they buy data to go there because they accrue value so the notion of facebook profiting. 2) No one forces you not to read the terms and conditions. you are shown and you don't care and move on - hiyo ni shauri yako. my friend, you need to be both a techie and a lawyer to fully understand those T and Cs. FB ET al take advantage of us poor humans who just want a dopamine hit. 3) China has blocked facebook for censorship reasons. The state there knows that they need to prevent people from really questioning their existence - what's the expression "If you could make God bleed, people would cease to believe in Him". Same with the state. Juzi they banned HBO because John Oliver made Xi Jinping look like Winne the Pooh 4) Facebook or any other company doesn't have to lift a finger to please you or your state especially if you are inconsequential. Inconsequential? Really! Is that how you view yourself? They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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Some extra bonus lesson on targeted advertising and FBs role in it https://www.google.com/a...complex-than-it-lets-on/They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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Some extra bonus lesson on targeted advertising and FBs role in it https://www.google.com/a...complex-than-it-lets-on/They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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The Eiffel tower is in France. Lot's of Americans fly to France - should the people running the Eiffel tower be taxed by Americans? Lot's of Germans come to the southern coast of Kenya... should those hotels pay taxes to Germany? some proposals are ridiculous. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:The Eiffel tower is in France. Lot's of Americans fly to France - should the people running the Eiffel tower be taxed by Americans? Lot's of Germans come to the southern coast of Kenya... should those hotels pay taxes to Germany? some proposals are ridiculous. What if the tower and hotel are teleported to US and Germany respectively?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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I don't think even facebook is in America. It's in a virtual space that can only be determined by where the user is.
If we were to say it's in America because that's where the servers are then we'd be wrong. There are servers in Ireland, Sweden, US, Singapore...
And if it's about incorporation then the matter becomes murkier...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:The Eiffel tower is in France. Lot's of Americans fly to France - should the people running the Eiffel tower be taxed by Americans? Lot's of Germans come to the southern coast of Kenya... should those hotels pay taxes to Germany? some proposals are ridiculous. What if the tower and hotel are teleported to US and Germany respectively? but they don't - your browser is synonymous to a magical set of binoculars combined with robotic arms. so the server never leaves the US - you just see what is in there and change stuff in the server. Your browser can be pointed at anything facebook, twitter e.t.c. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:The Eiffel tower is in France. Lot's of Americans fly to France - should the people running the Eiffel tower be taxed by Americans? Lot's of Germans come to the southern coast of Kenya... should those hotels pay taxes to Germany? some proposals are ridiculous. What if the tower and hotel are teleported to US and Germany respectively? but they don't - your browser is synonymous to a magical set of binoculars combined with robotic arms. so the server never leaves the US - you just see what is in there and change stuff in the server. Your browser can be pointed at anything facebook, twitter e.t.c. I think these applications extend from the browser and into the physical world. A browser is also a hole through which we enter other worlds.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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It's surprising many don't know what the internet is and how it works. Now block chain technology is coming to fruition many will not know what hit them. Better get educated fast. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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tycho wrote:I don't think even facebook is in America. It's in a virtual space that can only be determined by where the user is.
If we were to say it's in America because that's where the servers are then we'd be wrong. There are servers in Ireland, Sweden, US, Singapore...
And if it's about incorporation then the matter becomes murkier... And Facebook pays taxes in all these countries "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/20/2007 Posts: 767
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Another analogy. Assuming I order a product from Amazon. The product is shipped via dhl, received at the port of entry, processed and I pay 3 persons in this transaction, Amazon for the product, GoK as duty on the product ( because I am the importer) and I pay DHL as the transporter. The issue with social media is defining the product and defining the importer. Let's call social medias product ' product x'. I pay for product x with my data. Without agreeing to have my data collected, I cannot access social media. In defining the importer, let's ask simple questions. Does FB appear the same to all nationalities? Does FB to the Russian, British and Indian bear the same language, thought process and cultural sensitivities? Does FB hire personnel with a mind to target certain regions of the world, to adapt it's offering to the peculiarities of that region? If indeed the answer is Yes, can you then claim that all individuals who log in to FB are teleported to purchase the product x from one server in the US. What kind of product x is this that is based in one place yet caters to different cultures and is simultaneously in different languages? I put it to you that FB is the importer of product x into various economies. FB can decide to not have product x available in a certain jurisdiction. So in the case of FB, FB has made ( by default) their product available to me in Kenya. The ISP is the transporter and I purchase from FB with my personal data. As such, FB should pay duty to the government. They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,821 Location: Nairobi
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tom_boy wrote:Another analogy.
Assuming I order a product from Amazon. The product is shipped via dhl, received at the port of entry, processed and I pay 3 persons in this transaction, Amazon for the product, GoK as duty on the product ( because I am the importer) and I pay DHL as the transporter.
The issue with social media is defining the product and defining the importer. Let's call social medias product ' product x'. I pay for product x with my data. Without agreeing to have my data collected, I cannot access social media.
In defining the importer, let's ask simple questions.
Does FB appear the same to all nationalities? Does FB to the Russian, British and Indian bear the same language, thought process and cultural sensitivities? Does FB hire personnel with a mind to target certain regions of the world, to adapt it's offering to the peculiarities of that region? If indeed the answer is Yes, can you then claim that all individuals who log in to FB are teleported to purchase the product x from one server in the US. What kind of product x is this that is based in one place yet caters to different cultures and is simultaneously in different languages?
I put it to you that FB is the importer of product x into various economies. FB can decide to not have product x available in a certain jurisdiction. So in the case of FB, FB has made ( by default) their product available to me in Kenya. The ISP is the transporter and I purchase from FB with my personal data. As such, FB should pay duty to the government. the point is they customize it OVER THERE... similar to a Kenyan Hotel having a German translator to attract customers from Germany. Facebook never comes to kenya - you just see it from Kenya. The user interface shows you what is happening within their servers. so the whole story of facebook importing exporting is moot. The only people who can tax them is the US government - you can block your people from seeing them but you cannot tax them. Here is a good example - the US had placed sanctions on travel to Cuba but cuba accepted whomever came to their door. Cuba does not have to go with the whims of anyone. The Amazon story is not even related to this story - that's a physical good that you request using the magic binoculars and robotic arms. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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tom_boy wrote:Another analogy.
Assuming I order a product from Amazon. The product is shipped via dhl, received at the port of entry, processed and I pay 3 persons in this transaction, Amazon for the product, GoK as duty on the product ( because I am the importer) and I pay DHL as the transporter.
The issue with social media is defining the product and defining the importer. Let's call social medias product ' product x'. I pay for product x with my data. Without agreeing to have my data collected, I cannot access social media.
In defining the importer, let's ask simple questions.
Does FB appear the same to all nationalities? Does FB to the Russian, British and Indian bear the same language, thought process and cultural sensitivities? Does FB hire personnel with a mind to target certain regions of the world, to adapt it's offering to the peculiarities of that region? If indeed the answer is Yes, can you then claim that all individuals who log in to FB are teleported to purchase the product x from one server in the US. What kind of product x is this that is based in one place yet caters to different cultures and is simultaneously in different languages?
I put it to you that FB is the importer of product x into various economies. FB can decide to not have product x available in a certain jurisdiction. So in the case of FB, FB has made ( by default) their product available to me in Kenya. The ISP is the transporter and I purchase from FB with my personal data. As such, FB should pay duty to the government. Does Amazon pay GOK taxes because you saw a book and bought it? Don't you pay taxes in US then ship the item? What about if you bought an e-book? Movie? Any taxes paid to Gok? Shipping costs for the movie or ebook? FB has volunteer translators. Users of the site. Apart from that, there are so many Russian Indian Swahili speakers in US "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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