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Living within the fence
tycho
#41 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 12:26:33 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Ante_Christa wrote:

Hurry?

Not at all.


Good.
InnovateGuy
#42 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 12:31:17 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/15/2012
Posts: 1,110
tycho wrote:


What you are saying is conventionally sensible. But is based on some false premises like going beyond the fence is misanthropy. Misanthropy is the 'inhumane treatment' of 'humanity.' Nothing in my statement suggests that. Again, misanthropy is not a premise in itself; it is a finality.

You seem to forget the essence of God's action in history is one of going beyond the fence.

Now, this is a claim. What is the fence here? My hunch is that you are are using the standards of man. Are you aware of the standards used by the gods?

That aside, if relations within the fence are the ideal, why does the individual feel alienated?

It is not a perfect world. Some fit in, others don't. The reasons cannot be exhausted. Nothing in 'history' suggest that it was perfect.

The fence is alienating and dehumanizing. Going beyond it is embracing the other. It is 'society'.

In your own "measurements" the fence is alienating and dehumanizing. Depends on what you want to focus on. You seek perfection. Big question is: are you using perfect means? I don't think so. Once that is not possible, disillusionment sets in. And it becomes a "useless" world to you because everything is not working in tandem (as you might wish in your utopian world).



Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
kysse
#43 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 12:38:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/17/2013
Posts: 4,693
Location: Earth
Sad Sad

naona marudurudu.
tycho
#44 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 12:56:30 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
InnovateGuy wrote:
tycho wrote:


What you are saying is conventionally sensible. But is based on some false premises like going beyond the fence is misanthropy. Misanthropy is the 'inhumane treatment' of 'humanity.' Nothing in my statement suggests that. Again, misanthropy is not a premise in itself; it is a finality.

You seem to forget the essence of God's action in history is one of going beyond the fence.

Now, this is a claim. What is the fence here? My hunch is that you are are using the standards of man. Are you aware of the standards used by the gods?

That aside, if relations within the fence are the ideal, why does the individual feel alienated?

It is not a perfect world. Some fit in, others don't. The reasons cannot be exhausted. Nothing in 'history' suggest that it was perfect.

The fence is alienating and dehumanizing. Going beyond it is embracing the other. It is 'society'.

In your own "measurements" the fence is alienating and dehumanizing. Depends on what you want to focus on. You seek perfection. Big question is: are you using perfect means? I don't think so. Once that is not possible, disillusionment sets in. And it becomes a "useless" world to you because everything is not working in tandem (as you might wish in your utopian world).





I will let my claims about misanthropy wait and tackle your other points.

What's the fence; and whose standards am I using? The fence, is the construction of my ego. The standards are both Man's and God's. The two must always go together. And the ultimate act is the reconciliation of these standards. I am aware of God's standards. Lol.

What does living in an 'imperfect world' mean? It means that you look at the world and you see that it's not 'good'. You even point out the fact of 'subjectivity'. So the question is, do I see the world as 'good'? I do. How? By going beyond the 'fence'.

A 'perfect' way to beyond the fence exists. It is the way of the cross.
Ngong
#45 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 1:01:16 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/17/2012
Posts: 1,461
Location: Ngong Forest
In religion, transcendence refers to the aspect of God's nature and power which is wholly independent of (and removed from) the material universe. This is contrasted with immanence where God is fully present in the physical world and thus accessible to creatures in various ways
Ngong
#46 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 1:23:49 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/17/2012
Posts: 1,461
Location: Ngong Forest
kysse wrote:
Sad Sad

naona marudurudu.


Take heart,very enlightening thread,just take the flow don't ask questions cause by doing so the fence appears pap! and ordinary words get new meaning beyond transcend!smile
Ante_Christa
#47 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 1:47:21 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 5/31/2013
Posts: 109
Ngong wrote:
In religion, transcendence refers to the aspect of God's nature and power which is wholly independent of (and removed from) the material universe. This is contrasted with immanence where God is fully present in the physical world and thus accessible to creatures in various ways


There are stories and autobiographic accounts of people dying, 'transcending' the boundary, going to hell then heaven meeting Jesus and so on then coming back to tell us how it went.

Have you believed them? I hope not. If not, why? Yet they have talked of meeting God, Jesus and the angels? Isnt that good and right?

Just because God is mentioned somewhere in it does not make it kosher.

kysse, just be very discriminative, make fine distinctions there are subtle twists to be spotted.
Ngong
#48 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 2:00:20 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/17/2012
Posts: 1,461
Location: Ngong Forest
Ante_Christa wrote:
Ngong wrote:
In religion, transcendence refers to the aspect of God's nature and power which is wholly independent of (and removed from) the material universe. This is contrasted with immanence where God is fully present in the physical world and thus accessible to creatures in various ways


There are stories and autobiographic accounts of people dying, 'transcending' the boundary, going to hell then heaven meeting Jesus and so on then coming back to tell us how it went.

Have you believed them? I hope not. If not, why? Yet they have talked of meeting God, Jesus and the angels? Isnt that good and right?

Just because God is mentioned somewhere in it does not make it kosher.

kysse, just be very discriminative, make fine distinctions there are subtle twists to be spotted.


Let's try to understand @tycho!
No where he has said so,using his own words "zero is a number,a zero number"
Bulls eye,No?
tycho
#49 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 2:03:04 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Ante_Christa wrote:
Ngong wrote:
In religion, transcendence refers to the aspect of God's nature and power which is wholly independent of (and removed from) the material universe. This is contrasted with immanence where God is fully present in the physical world and thus accessible to creatures in various ways


There are stories and autobiographic accounts of people dying, 'transcending' the boundary, going to hell then heaven meeting Jesus and so on then coming back to tell us how it went.

Have you believed them? I hope not. If not, why? Yet they have talked of meeting God, Jesus and the angels? Isnt that good and right?

Just because God is mentioned somewhere in it does not make it kosher.

kysse, just be very discriminative, make fine distinctions there are subtle twists to be spotted.


Lol. Your thinking is now clearer. You do not believe accounts of those who have died, and ressurected with, and in Christ.

Better Thomas, who will ask; 'Show me where the nails passed through'.

Your advice to @kysse is even more illuminating of your thinking. 'Be fearful!' You seem to say. 'Stick to your doctrine!'

Hehehe.
InnovateGuy
#50 Posted : Monday, July 15, 2013 2:38:28 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/15/2012
Posts: 1,110
tycho wrote:


I will let my claims about misanthropy wait and tackle your other points.

What's the fence; and whose standards am I using? The fence, is the construction of my ego.

Good. A construction of your own ego. I will read this sentence along with your last statement.
tycho wrote:
So the question is, do I see the world as 'good'? I do. How? By going beyond the 'fence'.
What makes you think that going beyond the fence is the best thing? Why should "we" strive to go beyond the fence? Will we enjoy the same privileges you purport to enjoy? Is it the only thing that matters in life?
The standards are both Man's and God's. The two must always go together. And the ultimate act is the reconciliation of these standards. I am aware of God's standards. Lol.

I will not even tackle the standards.

What does living in an 'imperfect world' mean? It means that you look at the world and you see that it's not 'good'. You even point out the fact of 'subjectivity'. So the question is, do I see the world as 'good'? I do. How? By going beyond the 'fence'.

A 'perfect' way to beyond the fence exists. It is the way of the cross.


Back to the question of going beyond the fence, I will tackle the motivation. It's good that you brought up the word ego. According to Freud's psychoanalytic theory, personality has three components: ego, the id and superego. The ego component expresses rationality. It tries to make sense of the id component which is in charge of desires and wants. Your desire to go beyond the fence is to achieve satisfaction. Is the satisfaction a good thing? Yes it is. If fulfills the wishes of your superego. In this case, your superego is telling that going beyond the fence is the best thing. Well, no qualms about that. The big question is: is your definition of the fence universal? I don't think so. Therefore, the real driving force behind your thoughts is not achieve satisfaction. It is an attempt to be a cut above the rest. As a consequence, you seek to dominate and convince us that we need to go beyond the fence. We will be super-humans. Well, nothing is entirely wrong with that. But there's a problem, isn't the wholesome acceptance of other people's ideas without carrying out a background check on how it fits in well with our wishes slavery? Slavery that you wish to end!
Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
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