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The Mortgage Company - Any Info on Them?
a4architect.com
#41 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 2:07:33 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@litro, In any civilised society, laws are developed to ensure there is order in the construction industry. Arch, qs and eng are the main ensurers of consumer protection. @mukiri, @pennystocker has not publicly solicited people to offer them construction consultancy services as TMC has done. Consultations are important to avoid risk to general public eg buildings collapse, cracking, over/under budget/unnecessary litigation. We all see buildings collapse. I usually get clients asking me to resolve issues where they purchase houses then serious cracks appear.etc etc @tom boy, This is the advice that am already giving. Remember its your money so you can still risk it and go ahead. There is a reason all civilized society regulates construction by saying only an arch/eng/qs can give quality assurance and not TMC. In TMC website, i see no mention of any arch/eng/qs. Its complete breaking of construction law as spelt out in Kenya and the rest of the world. This law is meant to protect you the consumer. @tokyo. There are laws to be followed for any company to employ registered professionals to give service to the public. For example, the company must give full disclosure to BORAQS, AAK eg Kenya Airport Authority, Kenya Railways etc but not companies in the size of TMC. For example, can @tokyo wake up one day and employ a registered architect then start to solicit for business? No. There are laws to govern such a process. There are certain issues regarding professional responsibility etc to be followed. You can still use TMC since eventually its your money at risk but legally speaking TMC will have broken the law by misrepresenting you into procuring illegal services. @Tito44. Well said. I have absolutely no interest at all and my clientele is not same as TMC. Sometimes its good to stand by what is right no matter how unpopular it is. My concern is that TMC can easily get away with sugar coating info to unsuspecting Kenyans and not only get away with it, but still get support from the same people and still charge them even higher. @tom boy. Maybe am poor in getting my point across but sooner or later you will realise what am saying. The people who put up construction laws in Kenya and the rest of the civilised world could not have been wrong. It feels like the advice a parent gives to a truant teen who thinks that discos and drugs are important. It requires alot of patience for the parent till the day the teen will mature and see the importance of the advice. Let me be very clear again.The low/middle class individual home owner clientele is less than 10% of average architect customers so its not about competition with TMC who is targeting this market. There is only one way to reduce cost of construction in Kenya/world, through research/knowledge/skill in construction methodology. Arch/eng/qs have no monopoly over this but due to their work, tend to accumulate such info which helps reduce costs. TMC is not using any such info to reduce costs. In fact, their costs are higher than normal, at 27 to 28k per m2. If there were no laws to regulate this, i would have no beef with them since its a willing buyer willing seller market. In the thinking that someone is saving, they are actually spending more .27 to 28k per m2 is not a small amount . I have supervised constructions with costs as low as between kes 15 to kes 20k per m2 within the last 1 year for low/middle class finishes. Looks like Kenya is quite lenient in enforcing laws since in developed countries, the law would have been implemented to the letter. I cant employ a doctor then ask the doctor to give services to the public as a business model eg Buruburu doc.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
a4architect.com
#42 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 2:56:04 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
Mukiri wrote:
A prudent man would be well advised to listen to a4architect. The only problem I see here, is that he goes on and on and on and...... sometimes repeating himself. Yes, it shows passion, but it also comes out like he's trying to force someone into buying his views. Mbloo, you can only share your opinion, who was it that said 'Those that fight monsters should take care not to become monsters themselves..' @a4architect, I have a few questions 1. In @Pennystocker's thread, I can't remember him talking about consulting. From what I gathered, he uploaded an architectural drawing, he was his own contractor who got lucky to get a good fundi. Please be kind enough to point out the consultations 2. What exactly are these consultations? Why are they important? How much do they, on average cost? And if they can be under-cut, yet Nairobi is still standing... how does choosing to do them translate to a saving? 3. In simple(numbered) English, please take a novice through the process of construction from when he approaches an architect, approvals etc to completion... and monies payable. Thank you
@mukiri 1.@pennystocker is constructing at 40% cheaper than TMC rates. Therefore he is ok and must be having his construction project well managed. As to structural viability, this can only be ascertained after several years. 2. Consultations are important in that they assure you of quality for your millions spent and use knowledge/technology to reduce your costs. I recently supervised a construction to completion at kes 17k per m2 using technology. Buildings without consultancy part can crack or collapse or have disputes going out of hand . I have gotten people coming to me for solutions after their buildings crack, disputes gone out of hand etc and most of the reasons are due to lack of consultancy in the process. 3. process is as below. 1.client approaches architect. 2.architect designs house according to clients taste/style and budget . 3.architect /eng/qs supervises house to ensure quality 4. cost of consultancy is at 6% of total cost and can reduce for larger, repetitive buildings. On a similar note, this argument here reminds me of how people react when i tell them scientific truths on ISSB blocks. The media is awash with info on how ISSB blocks save 40% of construction costs. But when i calculate, the saving is less than 1%/negligible. People at first usually think i have an interest against ISSB suppliers till when they loose out practically. Same situation here.Its understandable.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Gathige
#43 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 4:43:53 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/29/2011
Posts: 2,242
@a4a, We appreciate your professional input in your posts. Your blog is a testament that you are one professional who shares info freely. Congrats. However, not all consultants are noble. Evey building that has collapsed in Nbi has had the list of all the consultants listed on those boards erected on the construction sites and that did not prevent the buildings from collapsing.
"Things that matter most must never be at the mercy of things that matter least." Goethe
a4architect.com
#44 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 5:25:53 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@gathige. thanks. I also research privately on buildings that colapse around Nairobi. http://www.a4architect.c...dings-collapse-in-kenya/ http://www.a4architect.c...dings-collapse-in-kenya/ http://www.a4architect.c...and-how-to-prevent-this/ 100% of them did not have registered arch/qs/eng consultancy in supervision. What the owners do is have the arch stamp on the drawings for approval purposes and continue with his fundi/foremen the TMC way. At the individual level, this is not a threat since the risk is to the owner. At a national level, its very disastrous. Every life lost due to greed/ignorance is very painful. Haiti 7.0 earthquake killed 100,000 people due to this short cut taking. Other earthquakes stronger than 7.0 eg Newzealand have less than 50 dead due to seriousness in such laws. Also, on much lower scale, i have seen developers get into simple disputes over construction .Due to lack of professionals to guide into how to legally add/subtract the costs, the dispute gets fatal with mungiki like gangs/police coming in to resolve , leading to even deaths. I have also seen people buy buildings which then crack. These problems and much more can be solved by using consultancies. This is an example of a contract btn client and contractor in civilised societies eg Kenya. Without arch/eng/qs, this document will not make sense . http://www.a4architect.c...ksconstruction-contract/
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
Mukiri
#45 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 6:10:49 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
a4architect.com wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
A prudent man would be well advised to listen to a4architect. The only problem I see here, is that he goes on and on and on and...... sometimes repeating himself. Yes, it shows passion, but it also comes out like he's trying to force someone into buying his views. Mbloo, you can only share your opinion, who was it that said 'Those that fight monsters should take care not to become monsters themselves..' @a4architect, I have a few questions 1. In @Pennystocker's thread, I can't remember him talking about consulting. From what I gathered, he uploaded an architectural drawing, he was his own contractor who got lucky to get a good fundi. Please be kind enough to point out the consultations 2. What exactly are these consultations? Why are they important? How much do they, on average cost? And if they can be under-cut, yet Nairobi is still standing... how does choosing to do them translate to a saving? 3. In simple(numbered) English, please take a novice through the process of construction from when he approaches an architect, approvals etc to completion... and monies payable. Thank you
@mukiri 1.@pennystocker is constructing at 40% cheaper than TMC rates. Therefore he is ok and must be having his construction project well managed. As to structural viability, this can only be ascertained after several years. 2. Consultations are important in that they assure you of quality for your millions spent and use knowledge/technology to reduce your costs. I recently supervised a construction to completion at kes 17k per m2 using technology. Buildings without consultancy part can crack or collapse or have disputes going out of hand . I have gotten people coming to me for solutions after their buildings crack, disputes gone out of hand etc and most of the reasons are due to lack of consultancy in the process. 3. process is as below. 1.client approaches architect. 2.architect designs house according to clients taste/style and budget . 3.architect /eng/qs supervises house to ensure quality 4. cost of consultancy is at 6% of total cost and can reduce for larger, repetitive buildings. On a similar note, this argument here reminds me of how people react when i tell them scientific truths on ISSB blocks. The media is awash with info on how ISSB blocks save 40% of construction costs. But when i calculate, the saving is less than 1%/negligible. People at first usually think i have an interest against ISSB suppliers till when they loose out practically. Same situation here.Its understandable.
Yenyewe kisungu alikuja kwa meli!Sad Let me repeat slowly 1. Did @Pennystocker consult a professional when making his building? Please show us on which post he consulted (I hope this is understandable) 2. Which consultant supervises what, and at what stage? Second, If building is 15-20 KES per M2(Your post #41) and supervision is 17 KES per M2(Your post #42) How does that translate to a saving.. Doesn't it push the cost of construction from 15 to 32? 3. In your (very) summarized procedure, I didn't see anywhere where approvals are sought? Neither did I see the procedure from the architect to the other professionals? Nor did I see how their fees are calculated? (Im sure you are a very busy man, but if you've decided to assist people, do so fully)
Proverbs 19:21
a4architect.com
#46 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 6:31:19 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@mukiri. Only @pennystocker can answer that question. The info he has given shows he is constructing at 20k per m2. The info on TMC shows they construct 40% more expensive at 27 to 28k per m2. @Pennystockers, with 40% lower cost is equal or better quality than @ TMC. 2.Qs supervises aspects of cost. Eng supervises aspects of structural integrity Arch supervises aspects of space, details, tech and management. Qs,arch and eng can supervise overal amanagement i.e project managerial role. Its possible to push construction cost to a low of 15 to 20k per m2 inclusive of consultancy fees. FYI all construction costs given here include professional fees which are negligible compared to overal construction costs, on average kes1,200 per m2. 3.If i were to give you the whole info i would fill a whole page. Once you contact a registerd arch, he guides you through the rest of the details.Read the roles here on CAP 525 of the laws of Kenya which TMC have flouted. Read from page 24 http://www.boraqs.or.ke/userfiles/CAP%20525.pdf Once you engage an architect, he then introduces the qs/eng to you for services. He then seeks approvals on your behalf from local authority. Yes am busy. Yes i have decided to assist people. But i also expect people to do abit of googling etc etc. I can olny guide you to info. If i was to give you detailed roles, its too much. also check here http://www.kenyalaw.org/...horityAct_No41of2011.pdf
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
mkenyan
#47 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 6:46:20 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,885
a4architect.com wrote:
@gathige. thanks. I also research privately on buildings that colapse around Nairobi. http://www.a4architect.c...dings-collapse-in-kenya/ http://www.a4architect.c...dings-collapse-in-kenya/ http://www.a4architect.c...and-how-to-prevent-this/ 100% of them did not have registered arch/qs/eng consultancy in supervision. What the owners do is have the arch stamp on the drawings for approval purposes and continue with his fundi/foremen the TMC way. At the individual level, this is not a threat since the risk is to the owner. At a national level, its very disastrous. Every life lost due to greed/ignorance is very painful. Haiti 7.0 earthquake killed 100,000 people due to this short cut taking. Other earthquakes stronger than 7.0 eg Newzealand have less than 50 dead due to seriousness in such laws. Also, on much lower scale, i have seen developers get into simple disputes over construction .Due to lack of professionals to guide into how to legally add/subtract the costs, the dispute gets fatal with mungiki like gangs/police coming in to resolve , leading to even deaths. I have also seen people buy buildings which then crack. These problems and much more can be solved by using consultancies. This is an example of a contract btn client and contractor in civilised societies eg Kenya. Without arch/eng/qs, this document will not make sense . http://www.a4architect.c...ksconstruction-contract/
a4architect.com, from where did you get the information that tmc do not use architects/qs/qualified professionals etc in their buildings? my understanding is that there are four parties to this: 1) tmc 2) client 3) the mortgage provider (some chase bank micro finance) and 4) the construction company. tmc do not do the construction themselves and for all i know the construction company consults the necessary professionals as they carry out the constructions. have you confirmed that the construction company (or tmc for that matter) do not use qualified professionals? or you are just relying n what you read online and hear from third parties? reading your comments here you started from wondering whether they employ consultants and in the bold part above have now moved into saying they use fundi/foreman after having architects stamp their plans (in effect saying they delve in illegalities) if not then as a professional you are seriously out of line - slandering others online without all facts is unbecoming to say the least.
a4architect.com
#48 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 6:54:20 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
a4architect.com, from where did you get the information that tmc do not use architects/qs/qualified professionals etc in their buildings? my understanding is that there are four parties to this: 1) tmc 2) client 3) the mortgage provider (some chase bank micro finance) and 4) the construction company. tmc do not do the construction themselves and for all i know the construction company consults the necessary professionals as they carry out the constructions. have you confirmed that the construction company (or tmc for that matter) do not use qualified professionals? or you are just relying n what you read online and hear from third parties? reading your comments here you started from wondering whether they employ consultants and in the bold part above have now moved into saying they use fundi/foreman after having architects stamp their plans (in effect saying they delve in illegalities) if not then as a professional you are seriously out of line - slandering others online without all facts is unbecoming to say the least.[/quote] @Mkenyan. Check TMC website here http://www.tmcafrica.com/our-services/makazi-mema It states as below
Quote:
TMC Project Management Services To ensure that the contractor adheres to the agreed timelines for constructing the House within Six (6) months for Bungalows and 9(Nine) months for Maisonette after approval of the Plans and uses all reasonable care, skill and workmanship in construction of the houses. To inspect and oversee the construction process for and on behalf of the client.
Now , read this CAP 525 of the laws of Kenya here http://www.boraqs.or.ke/userfiles/CAP%20525.pdf Show me where TMC have stated that they will work with a registered arch/eng/qs to offer the supervisory services except in council approval. The part in red above, which TMC have said they offer services for, can only be offered by a registered arch/eng or qs, not TMC. Am stating what TMC have publicly said in their website. No where have they mentioned that they will use Arch/eng/Qs. Someone here also said the budget for consultants is 50k in the TMC deal.This is what made me re-look into how this could be possible only to find gross anomalies. I understand TMC are hustling like everyone else but the law is the law, it doesnt change.
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
mkenyan
#49 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 6:59:34 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,885
a4architect.com wrote:
mkenyan wrote:
a4architect.com, from where did you get the information that tmc do not use architects/qs/qualified professionals etc in their buildings? my understanding is that there are four parties to this: 1) tmc 2) client 3) the mortgage provider (some chase bank micro finance) and 4) the construction company. tmc do not do the construction themselves and for all i know the construction company consults the necessary professionals as they carry out the constructions. have you confirmed that the construction company (or tmc for that matter) do not use qualified professionals? or you are just relying n what you read online and hear from third parties? reading your comments here you started from wondering whether they employ consultants and in the bold part above have now moved into saying they use fundi/foreman after having architects stamp their plans (in effect saying they delve in illegalities) if not then as a professional you are seriously out of line - slandering others online without all facts is unbecoming to say the least.
@Mkenyan. Check TMC website here http://www.tmcafrica.com/our-services/makazi-mema It states as below
Quote:
TMC Project Management Services To ensure that the contractor adheres to the agreed timelines for constructing the House within Six (6) months for Bungalows and 9(Nine) months for Maisonette after approval of the Plans and uses all reasonable care, skill and workmanship in construction of the houses. To inspect and oversee the construction process for and on behalf of the client.
Now , read this CAP 525 of the laws of Kenya here http://www.boraqs.or.ke/userfiles/CAP%20525.pdf Show me where TMC have stated that they will work with a registered arch/eng/qs to offer the supervisory services except in council approval. The part in red above, which TMC have said they offer services for, can only be offered by a registered arch/eng or qs, not TMC.
so in effect you are saying that all that you have written against tmc is based on what you get from their website?
a4architect.com
#50 Posted : Wednesday, August 07, 2013 7:03:51 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/4/2010
Posts: 1,668
Location: nairobi
@mkenyan. Yes. On 27 to 28k per m2 construction cost , its on TMC website. TMC again contradict themselves with a 20 to 22k per m2 cost on their website. Check my earlier posts for TMC website snapshots on all these. On supervising projects by TMC, its well put on their website.Check the snapshots in previous posts. This service legally should be only offered by arch/eng/qs. Read the Kenyan law on this here http://www.boraqs.or.ke/userfiles/CAP%20525.pdf
As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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