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maka
#471 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:01:03 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
Bigchick wrote:
Dahatre wrote:
I am failing to understand why people are so against higher salaries for doctors. We should value them- we have fewer than 6,000 of them in a population of almost 50 million people!

I think the argument that they will steal if hospitals are well equipped is dubious at best. If the government thinks that universal health is a value, then they create incentives for docs not to set up private clinics/join private practices-by giving them more money and better working environments/conditions, coupled with enforceable rules of conduct.

But Universal health care is NOT a value for us, so we need to kill public hospitals/ clinics, and privatize health, education etc..to fulfill the terms of those who are funding us to do whatever it is that we are doing with all of those billions that we have been getting as loans. Deaths of the poor--collateral damage.



From where I stand,nobody is against a salary increament for docs.Its the amounts they want that are crazy.....

However I sat with doc last evenning and he told me what they are asking for is this.

1.Entry level pay to move from 72k to 221k and the highest paid doc to move from 550k to circa 720k. That sounds reasonable to me.

2.They also want to have Docs housed within the health facilities to avoid driving far when on call or sleeping in the office.That too is reasonable in my view.
3.They also want to be under National government not counties...am not sure I fully appreciate the implications of each.

We can get out of this mess if they tone down and discuss but as it stands Ouma Oluga beliefs he is the later day Dedan Kimathi Wachiuri and will not burge.







Who should tone down again?
possunt quia posse videntur
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tom_boy
#472 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:02:41 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
Dahatre wrote:
I am failing to understand why people are so against higher salaries for doctors. We should value them- we have fewer than 6,000 of them in a population of almost 50 million people!

I think the argument that they will steal if hospitals are well equipped is dubious at best. If the government thinks that universal health is a value, then they create incentives for docs not to set up private clinics/join private practices-by giving them more money and better working environments/conditions, coupled with enforceable rules of conduct.

But Universal health care is NOT a value for us, so we need to kill public hospitals/ clinics, and privatize health, education etc..to fulfill the terms of those who are funding us to do whatever it is that we are doing with all of those billions that we have been getting as loans. Deaths of the poor--collateral damage.


Well said.
Dont try respond to @murchr. He /she is a sycophant. Incoherent thought process..

Kenyans deserve better healthcare. Why should 95% of NHIF budget be going to private health institutions. Why cant that budget go to public hospitals. Why go to nrb hosp, coptic, nrb west for dialysis paid for by nhif rather than have nhif pay govt hospitals to do the same. The whole govt thought process behind healthcare is just wrong.

Why buy expensive icu equipment, mri machines and put them in district hospitals with non existent biomedical technical department, non existent mri technicians, non existent radiologists to read the mri films. Non existent icu trained doctors and nurses. Non existent renal physicians but the dialysis equipment is there, rotting away. Just plain putting the cart before the horse, fueled by a healthy dose of kickbacks.

Why buy 10million bob containers and no budget for the doctor, nurse, driver, pharmacist, lab technologist who will be in that container gallavanting to where there is no doctor. Is it a wonder those things are rotting away.

NHIF is the new NYS. Mark my words. Beats logic why a govt body would institute procedures and measures to pour money into private pockets while concertedly killing the public sector hospitals.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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alma1
#473 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:03:35 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/19/2015
Posts: 2,871
Location: hapo
FRM2011 wrote:

@murchr, please edit the post above where you started with an insult. That's not you. We expect and accept that from @hardwood, @harrydre, @muchknow and the rest of kameme listening gang.

You always come across as one of the few and very rare jubilee supporters who can reason.

From the day the doctors were released, itumbi has gone into overdrive to demonize the doctors on Facebook. Its like statehouse wants the talks to derail.

Knowing our first family and their insatiable greed, I wouldn't be shocked they have already invested in private healthcare and they want the public health system to collapse completely.


@ni phobe..murchr is someone you can argue with and actually go along with..

hao wengine umetaja are just kamememe.

On this one murchr you are wrong. But between you and me that is nothing strange. You have lost all arguments with me here...Ni ya Ndemo tu. smile


But having said that...

And having got rid of the Itumbi fake accounts, let's discuss serious issues.

My family is a family of doctors. Some of the best in rift valley province. I'm 100% sure you have been touched by them.

But when we look at health care in 2017 and health care in the 70's, it is clear all these gov'ts have failed. pathetically!!!!

You can't have nurses going to the US from Kenya and being voted the best nurses in their states. The same nurse was getting 25k in Kenya.

We have doctors in Botswana. Botswana for crying out aloud.

In Moshi, it's Kenyan doctors.

Yet some fellas want to tell us our doctors are bad, corrupt and thugs.

The only thieves I know about are in gov't...They go into a bank and come out with gunias.

The rest of the professionals are trying to work with impossible odds.

The doctors are all Kenyan. All tribes...All ages. It is only Itumbi the confirmed liar who comes out with tribe. These doctors are not stupid. These doctors are not crazy.

The only crazy people I know are the ones who buy containers and call them mobile clinics.


Kenya is changing...When the young middle class and professionals decide to fight the system. A system that killed my child. A system that doesn't work. A system that jubilee thinks is perfect. A system that has kabura as a hero...

Kenyans should be paid adequately for their services. Kenyans should demand more of their elected leaders.

By the way, where is Uhuru, Where is Ruto?

Ama they leave abusing people to hardwood and Itumbi?

The gov't should give health care.

If they can't they should go home. It is simple and clear. Kama wameshindwa to negotiate with doctors, why are they there in the first place?

Uhuru has failed miserably.
Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Much Know
#474 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:07:39 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,579
murchr wrote:

We kihii stop the insults they dont make you look any cool or intelligent.

The "big types" someone should tell their leader @From2011 to stop insulting elders! There is nothing like such a "hardline" stance in our culture!ni utoto na ujinga! These "big kids" need to grow up and face upto to the real situation!
Ras Kienyeji Man
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Dahatre
#475 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:07:44 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
murchr wrote:
Dahatre wrote:
I am failing to understand why people are so against higher salaries for doctors. We should value them- we have fewer than 6,000 of them in a population of almost 50 million people!

I think the argument that they will steal if hospitals are well equipped is dubious at best. If the government thinks that universal health is a value, then they create incentives for docs not to set up private clinics/join private practices-by giving them more money and better working environments/conditions, coupled with enforceable rules of conduct.

But Universal health care is NOT a value for us, so we need to kill public hospitals/ clinics, and privatize health, education etc..to fulfill the terms of those who are funding us to do whatever it is that we are doing with all of those billions that we have been getting as loans. Deaths of the poor--collateral damage.


1. Because its not a charity and 40% of us are so poor to pay taxes.

Healthcare for the poor is always a charity whether you are in Sweden or the USA (the two extremes). Taxes (or insurance premiums) from the 60% who can pay subsidize the 40% who cannot (see Medicare and Medicaid in the US).

2. If they get an increase, all civil servants will need to get that 150% increase.

Not necessarily. We have different payscales for a reason-If we decide that doctors provide a valuable service.

3. The health budget does not just cater for salaries, there's drugs and other supplies that will be needed to run efficiently.

Of course- and in many cases those other costs are higher than the salaries. These costs will still be there even in privatized medicine and the 40% will still not have the resources to pay for these expenses.

4. Privatizing might be the only way to follow to satisfy doctors - that loan ni pesa ya wenyewe na lazima ilipwe. How does the health sector contribute to the govt wallet? How much do you pay as NHIF?

Privatization still leaves the conundrum of what to do with the poor-Other than let them die in the streets.

The health sector does not directly contribute to the govt. The govt builds human capital by having a healthy populace that can contribute to the growth and economy of the country.








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alma1
#476 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:12:37 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/19/2015
Posts: 2,871
Location: hapo
Dahatre wrote:
murchr wrote:
Dahatre wrote:
I am failing to understand why people are so against higher salaries for doctors. We should value them- we have fewer than 6,000 of them in a population of almost 50 million people!

I think the argument that they will steal if hospitals are well equipped is dubious at best. If the government thinks that universal health is a value, then they create incentives for docs not to set up private clinics/join private practices-by giving them more money and better working environments/conditions, coupled with enforceable rules of conduct.

But Universal health care is NOT a value for us, so we need to kill public hospitals/ clinics, and privatize health, education etc..to fulfill the terms of those who are funding us to do whatever it is that we are doing with all of those billions that we have been getting as loans. Deaths of the poor--collateral damage.


1. Because its not a charity and 40% of us are so poor to pay taxes.

Healthcare for the poor is always a charity whether you are in Sweden or the USA (the two extremes). Taxes (or insurance premiums) from the 60% who can pay subsidize the 40% who cannot (see Medicare and Medicaid in the US).

2. If they get an increase, all civil servants will need to get that 150% increase.

Not necessarily. We have different payscales for a reason-If we decide that doctors provide a valuable service.

3. The health budget does not just cater for salaries, there's drugs and other supplies that will be needed to run efficiently.

Of course- and in many cases those other costs are higher than the salaries. These costs will still be there even in privatized medicine and the 40% will still not have the resources to pay for these expenses.

4. Privatizing might be the only way to follow to satisfy doctors - that loan ni pesa ya wenyewe na lazima ilipwe. How does the health sector contribute to the govt wallet? How much do you pay as NHIF?

Privatization still leaves the conundrum of what to do with the poor-Other than let them die in the streets.

The health sector does not directly contribute to the govt. The govt builds human capital by having a healthy populace that can contribute to the growth and economy of the country.












I want Murchr to explain to me why 80% of my NHIF taxes go to Nation Media Group.

Why Murchr should Aga Khan hospital and Nairobi Hospital get my taxes and then declare themselves as a non-profit. Thereby not paying taxes.

Yet, if you fell at Nairobi hospital doorsteps, these people will just watch you die.

I have proof of someone dying at their doorstep.

Yet they are non-profit and we pay them in NHIF.

Stop lying to Kenyans please.

It is the CBA or Uhuru goes home.
Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Dahatre
#477 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:15:49 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
Bigchick wrote:
Dahatre wrote:
I am failing to understand why people are so against higher salaries for doctors. We should value them- we have fewer than 6,000 of them in a population of almost 50 million people!

I think the argument that they will steal if hospitals are well equipped is dubious at best. If the government thinks that universal health is a value, then they create incentives for docs not to set up private clinics/join private practices-by giving them more money and better working environments/conditions, coupled with enforceable rules of conduct.

But Universal health care is NOT a value for us, so we need to kill public hospitals/ clinics, and privatize health, education etc..to fulfill the terms of those who are funding us to do whatever it is that we are doing with all of those billions that we have been getting as loans. Deaths of the poor--collateral damage.



From where I stand,nobody is against a salary increament for docs.Its the amounts they want that are crazy.....

However I sat with doc last evenning and he told me what they are asking for is this.

1.Entry level pay to move from 72k to 221k and the highest paid doc to move from 550k to circa 720k. That sounds reasonable to me.

2.They also want to have Docs housed within the health facilities to avoid driving far when on call or sleeping in the office.That too is reasonable in my view.
3.They also want to be under National government not counties...am not sure I fully appreciate the implications of each.

We can get out of this mess if they tone down and discuss but as it stands Ouma Oluga beliefs he is the later day Dedan Kimathi Wachiuri and will not burge.






I think those are very reasonable requests. With or without Oluga or whomever we cannot continue the way we are, without great suffering for our people...
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maka
#478 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 11:20:52 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
Dahatre wrote:
Bigchick wrote:
Dahatre wrote:
I am failing to understand why people are so against higher salaries for doctors. We should value them- we have fewer than 6,000 of them in a population of almost 50 million people!

I think the argument that they will steal if hospitals are well equipped is dubious at best. If the government thinks that universal health is a value, then they create incentives for docs not to set up private clinics/join private practices-by giving them more money and better working environments/conditions, coupled with enforceable rules of conduct.

But Universal health care is NOT a value for us, so we need to kill public hospitals/ clinics, and privatize health, education etc..to fulfill the terms of those who are funding us to do whatever it is that we are doing with all of those billions that we have been getting as loans. Deaths of the poor--collateral damage.



From where I stand,nobody is against a salary increament for docs.Its the amounts they want that are crazy.....

However I sat with doc last evenning and he told me what they are asking for is this.

1.Entry level pay to move from 72k to 221k and the highest paid doc to move from 550k to circa 720k. That sounds reasonable to me.

2.They also want to have Docs housed within the health facilities to avoid driving far when on call or sleeping in the office.That too is reasonable in my view.
3.They also want to be under National government not counties...am not sure I fully appreciate the implications of each.

We can get out of this mess if they tone down and discuss but as it stands Ouma Oluga beliefs he is the later day Dedan Kimathi Wachiuri and will not burge.






I think those are very reasonable requests. With or without Oluga or whomever we cannot continue the way we are, without great suffering for our people...


True...
possunt quia posse videntur
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tom_boy
#479 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 12:38:47 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/20/2007
Posts: 767
Those who do not go to public hospitals may feel insulated against the mess in public health care but I assure you, you are an ostrich, burying your head in the sand.

FACT: all doctors are trained in the public health system. If there are no facilities, inadequate supervision, that doctor is the same one seeing you in the private hospital.

FACT: Government has to set the bar in terms of what quality healthcare means. If govt does not invest in efficient systems, good drugs, reliable labs, guess what, 80% of private hospitals will not bother. Why invest in expensive systems and quality procedures when you have a trapped populace that will come to you no matter what crap you offer.

FACT: Our so called premier private hospitals are a far cry from Indian private hospitals when it comes to customer care and service delivery. Ask anyone who has been treated in India. I believe its because there is no alternative for the Kenyan middle class. You are therefore stuck with a barely above mediocre healthcare because the alternative is unimaginable. If KNH private wing was to function like a real hospital, Nrb hospital would significantly downscale their operations. If KNH public side was to operate efficiently, coptic, nrb womens, and other smaller hospitals would close down.

FACT: Cancer treatment in Kenya is pathetic because we do not have means to make proper diagnosis. No private institution will make the expensive investment when they may as well put money in more profitable ventures like simple lab tests and imaging. The govt must step up and establish proper facilities for cancer diagnosis.

FACT: Running a hospital is as much about having proper personnel, regular quality assessment procedures and proper systems. Not just equipment.
They must find it difficult....... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority. -G. Massey.
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FRM2011
#480 Posted : Sunday, February 19, 2017 2:31:54 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459
Much Know wrote:
murchr wrote:

We kihii stop the insults they dont make you look any cool or intelligent.

The "big types" someone should tell their leader @From2011 to stop insulting elders! There is nothing like such a "hardline" stance in our culture!ni utoto na ujinga! These "big kids" need to grow up and face upto to the real situation!


BTW am still willing to give @murchr the benefit of doubt. He is not like you guys. I can see you are celebrating him joining your ranks.

I can bet he doesn't know the frequency for kameme FM. Mostly listens to capital FM. He is an insider who knows what is happening unlike the rest of you.

He is either a senior govt technocrat or a very well connected businessman. That's why we take him seriously unlike the rest of you who listen to gatonye on kameme.

On circumcision, why is it that those who practice it are the most backward, primitive, violent and pure savages.
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