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Has the real estate bubble burst????
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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sparkly wrote:MugundaMan wrote:Mike Ock wrote:High end rentals are nowadays making zero sense in terms of time to break even. But most of the money in the high end wasn't really looking for a quick return anyway. Depends on what you mean by "break even" I personally do not even look at rental yield as a factor in Kenya given the nature of cost structure in the industry. If you buy a 30m apartment for example and then hope to "break even" on the rents soon, you might be waiting decades. But what you lose in rental yields you gain in cap gains. This is why you are absolutely correct to say money in high end is not looking for a quick return (cash flows) and are very happy to wait 3, 5, 10 and even 20 years+ to make their real mint. Buildings depreciate and in 20 years the apartment is half way through its useful economic life. I think you are stretching this accounting fix to unreasonable levels. I bought a house in 1997 for 2M. According to you it should now be worth less than 1M. Yet recently I got it valued, on orders of a Bank, the best accountants there is. Value? 18M. Where has your depreciation gone? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,635
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VituVingiSana wrote:@mugundaman
The law of demand and supply is alive and kicking.
We came off a "lost decade" under moi and so from 2002 onwards so we had the benefit of starting off from a low base.
Growth Rate: 5% is not "red-hot" given some countries like India and China (if you believe the official stats) had 7-10% growth for more than a decade. Some areas will continue to see an increase in prices if access (eg roads) make in-roads.
Middle Class: It will continue growing but 'affordability' of real estate remains key. People benefit from living closer to where they work and the "affordable" plots further out may have a commuting cost.
On an all-cash personal/individual portfolio, one can get 11% (after tax) on IFBs. In some "middle-class) parts of Nairobi, the gross rental yields are 6% (pre-tax), then discount maintenance costs, etc. Plus the hassle of owning real estate - dealing with tenants, etc. [Rents usually increase but IFB yields will not]
Will the property increase in value by 5% annually to match the IFBs?
There are many other factors that come in play. This is a not a comprehensive analysis.
If one is buying a plot, without building a rentable structure, then the capital appreciation required is at least 11%. I spent some time at the Home expo last week and got to visit the Ministry of housing stand. The young man I found took me through the plans they have to achieve, and eben exceed one of Uhurus legacy big 4. I was impressed. I was also reminded that many advanced economies have been lifted to there current levels by their housing sectors (forget the once in a decade contraction outliers). If this plan takes off and the middle class is able to access cheap houses and 25 year mortgages, the puny 5% economic growth rates will be history. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 14,213 Location: nairobi
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Wakanyugi wrote:sparkly wrote:MugundaMan wrote:Mike Ock wrote:High end rentals are nowadays making zero sense in terms of time to break even. But most of the money in the high end wasn't really looking for a quick return anyway. Depends on what you mean by "break even" I personally do not even look at rental yield as a factor in Kenya given the nature of cost structure in the industry. If you buy a 30m apartment for example and then hope to "break even" on the rents soon, you might be waiting decades. But what you lose in rental yields you gain in cap gains. This is why you are absolutely correct to say money in high end is not looking for a quick return (cash flows) and are very happy to wait 3, 5, 10 and even 20 years+ to make their real mint. Buildings depreciate and in 20 years the apartment is half way through its useful economic life. I think you are stretching this accounting fix to unreasonable levels. I bought a house in 1997 for 2M. According to you it should now be worth less than 1M. Yet recently I got it valued, on orders of a Bank, the best accountants there is. Value? 18M. Where has your depreciation gone? Wachana na @sparkly KQ ABP 4.26
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/3/2007 Posts: 18,346 Location: Nairobi
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tony stark wrote:VituVingiSana wrote:Subsidies distort the market.
So @tonystark, if GoK is going to subsidize the "low-cost housing" then one can't beat GoK. It was like the imported maize.
New tech will benefit new housing and those with land (or an old building that can be torn down) will benefit.
I "own" real estate indirectly through some NSE investments but most are not in the primary business of real estate. I agree that GoK playing in the market distorts the market but GoK can not supply enough even with the 3% tax. What GoK is doing si helping to reduce the inequality because there is a group of people who are certainly being ignored by th protery developer. My point is is that without GoK intervention there is a huge group of people who are being left out from the market because developers are looking for a 30-40% return on investment! Also by intervening GoK creates a "new" middle class bu enabling a group of people to obtain an appreciating asset cheaply and also provides the "new" middle with an asset to enable borrowing of the new asset. This also has an effect on the general economy. The government should not subsidize the units for a few but allow for others to build quality as cheaply as possible by encouraging competition. Some builders may be willing to build for a 10% margin if all the other factors are constant i.e. not dealing with delayed payments from buyers, onerous local authority requirements, not installing infrastructure usually provided by local authorities, lower taxes/VAT, etc. Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/3/2007 Posts: 18,346 Location: Nairobi
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@mugunda wrote : "Which an average plot bila structure EASILY beats per annum. As I told you bro, 11% is crumbs in the R.E. Industry. Someone who buys one acre and subdivides into 7 parcels of 1/8ths can make a 200%+ return NET quite easily without breaking a sweat in a few MONTHS let alone a year. This is not rocket science or some theory in a book my broda this is FACT." >>> You are a wholesaler/trader. Good for you. Those buying 1/8ths from you aren't going to make much in capital gains in the near term. What you are describing is a pyramid scheme of sorts. I am not knocking your business model of buy wholesale and sell retail. Very sensible business. Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,212 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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VituVingiSana wrote:@mugunda wrote : "Which an average plot bila structure EASILY beats per annum. As I told you bro, 11% is crumbs in the R.E. Industry. Someone who buys one acre and subdivides into 7 parcels of 1/8ths can make a 200%+ return NET quite easily without breaking a sweat in a few MONTHS let alone a year. This is not rocket science or some theory in a book my broda this is FACT." >>> You are a wholesaler/trader. Good for you. Those buying 1/8ths from you aren't going to make much in capital gains in the near term. What you are describing is a pyramid scheme of sorts.
I am not knocking your business model of buy wholesale and sell retail. Very sensible business. I see you are now shifting goalposts after we proved your arguments held no water. For the record I am NOT a wholesaler. I just gave you an example of how I have earned a 22% return on one plot I bought in January. What more do you want, my broda? Saying that 1/8ths don't appreciate in Kiinya is like saying the sun will not rise tomorrow. Ask anyone who has bought an 1/8th in Kenya since 1963 if it has appreciated or not year over year.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/7/2012 Posts: 11,935
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MugundaMan wrote:VituVingiSana wrote:@mugunda wrote : "Which an average plot bila structure EASILY beats per annum. As I told you bro, 11% is crumbs in the R.E. Industry. Someone who buys one acre and subdivides into 7 parcels of 1/8ths can make a 200%+ return NET quite easily without breaking a sweat in a few MONTHS let alone a year. This is not rocket science or some theory in a book my broda this is FACT." >>> You are a wholesaler/trader. Good for you. Those buying 1/8ths from you aren't going to make much in capital gains in the near term. What you are describing is a pyramid scheme of sorts.
I am not knocking your business model of buy wholesale and sell retail. Very sensible business. I see you are now shifting goalposts after we proved your arguments held no water. For the record I am NOT a wholesaler. I just gave you an example of how I have earned a 22% return on one plot I bought in January. What more do you want, my broda? Saying that 1/8ths don't appreciate in Kiinya is like saying the sun will not rise tomorrow. Ask anyone who has bought an 1/8th in Kenya since 1963 if it has appreciated or not year over year. Let us be realistic on time-frame, how long would it take you to get the title into your name, sub divide and sell all the subdivided plots for you to get the return. Anyway good for those making such 'outrageous' profits but I KNOW it is not a walk in the park as it is being portrayed here verses 'other' investments. Let me sleep easy with bonds courtesy of @maka. In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/8/2018 Posts: 2,212 Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
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Angelica _ann wrote: Let us be realistic on time-frame, how long would it take you to get the title into your name, sub divide and sell all the subdivided plots for you to get the return. Anyway good for those making such 'outrageous' profits but I KNOW it is not a walk in the park as it is being portrayed here verses 'other' investments.
Let me sleep easy with bonds courtesy of @maka.
So in other words you are telling us you are very lazy nani alisema real estate is "a walk in the park" A lazy person cannot even wake up to go on a site visit to inspect a plot on a good Saturday, let alone anything beyond that. That would be expecting too much of them, my sista. Reminds me of one of my relatives. The guy is so lazy to go and deliver an envelope across town may take him three weeks but he always has a very creative excuse as to why the delivery has not happened yet. And it keeps changing daily. Bure ghabisa!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/23/2009 Posts: 14,213 Location: nairobi
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MugundaMan wrote:Angelica _ann wrote: Let us be realistic on time-frame, how long would it take you to get the title into your name, sub divide and sell all the subdivided plots for you to get the return. Anyway good for those making such 'outrageous' profits but I KNOW it is not a walk in the park as it is being portrayed here verses 'other' investments.
Let me sleep easy with bonds courtesy of @maka.
So in other words you are telling us you are very lazy nani alisema real estate is "a walk in the park" A lazy person cannot even wake up to go on a site visit to inspect a plot on a good Saturday, let alone anything beyond that. That would be expecting too much of them, my sista. Reminds me of one of my relatives. The guy is so lazy to go and deliver an envelope across town may take him three weeks but he always has a very creative excuse as to why it has not happened. KTN news discussing @MigundaMan right now KQ ABP 4.26
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/3/2007 Posts: 18,346 Location: Nairobi
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MugundaMan wrote:VituVingiSana wrote:@mugunda wrote : "Which an average plot bila structure EASILY beats per annum. As I told you bro, 11% is crumbs in the R.E. Industry. Someone who buys one acre and subdivides into 7 parcels of 1/8ths can make a 200%+ return NET quite easily without breaking a sweat in a few MONTHS let alone a year. This is not rocket science or some theory in a book my broda this is FACT." >>> You are a wholesaler/trader. Good for you. Those buying 1/8ths from you aren't going to make much in capital gains in the near term. What you are describing is a pyramid scheme of sorts.
I am not knocking your business model of buy wholesale and sell retail. Very sensible business. I see you are now shifting goalposts after we proved your arguments held no water. For the record I am NOT a wholesaler. I just gave you an example of how I have earned a 22% return on one plot I bought in January. What more do you want, my broda? Saying that 1/8ths don't appreciate in Kiinya is like saying the sun will not rise tomorrow. Ask anyone who has bought an 1/8th in Kenya since 1963 if it has appreciated or not year over year. OK. You are right. Good luck! Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
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