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Pokot herders
Obi 1 Kanobi
#61 Posted : Wednesday, July 26, 2017 12:20:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
sanity wrote:
hardwood wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
hardwood wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
simonkabz wrote:
The Pokot remind me of the South Sudanese.

Nothing will come out of South Sudan, not until the current crop of human beings is extint. Jews should have occupied that land which is so endowed with resources (water, oil, pasture, rainfall) and hordes of savages.

The Pokot people are hurtling in the same direction. They don't sound like a people who can coexist with neighbours. As of now, there's a silent peace pact between them and the Samburu, hence the apparent collaboration in these invasions of white farms. Even though the sheer size of the farms is an indignity by itself, I do not think relapsing to the 16th century savage era will solve anything.

Today, Laikipia, Samburu, Baringo and parts of Elgeyo Marakwet are war zones. Happening just when they are being opened with asphalt roads and other infrstructure.......Very unfortunate.


I really hate this kind of reasoning that reduces human existence to the level of machines or domestic animals. Human worth cannot be reduced to production. What does it matter that nothing comes out of South Sudan? Does South Sudan and its people exist so that they can produce for other people to determine that they deserve to exist?

Pokots are human beings with every right to exist. In my opinion they are freedom fighters just like the Mau mau.

What freedom fighters? Would you term akamba invading Kiambu and killing the kiambuans freedom fighters? That is what pokot are doing in laikipia. They have migrated from Baringo to laikipia and are killing everyone from smallholder farmers to ranchers with abandon. They must be stopped.

And as @simonkabz has said they have been fighting everyone....marakwets to the west, turkana to the north, samburu to the east, ilchamus and tugens to the south, and now kikuyus and white farmers in laikipia to the south east. They have moved from B aringo and are now in rumuruti. Soon they might attack ndaragwa, kieni and nyeri having moved 300km from their homeland.


They are fighting for their freedom to exist and live the way they have always lived. I think the Pokot, Samburu, Marakwet and Tugen have no problem with each other. They have always fought each other and they will eventually make peace and then fight again. It is the white people and other non pastoralist Kenyans who moved into pastoralist lands that are crying. They have determined that a pastoralist way of life is not worthy of existence and look down upon it. A Pokot who determines that his way of life is worth fighting is a freedom fighter. We created a country that only legitimizes the white settlers way of life. There are people who live differently and they too are people.



If there is anyone who should be fighting it is the maasai whose fore fathers signed that land agreement with mzungu. But you cant have samburus and pokots invading from the neighbouring districts in the north and west respectively and killing maasai group ranch owners, whites and okuyo farmers. Pokots should remain in their territory in baringo and west pokot, and samburus in samburu district. If we cannot allow luhyas or nandi to invade kisumu county, then we must not allow pokots and samburu to invade laikipia.


This is the reason why as a society we created social contracts to form a thing called Government (politics 101).This Thing is supposed to ensure all diverse communities co-exist in harmony.It should have a monopoly of violence in order to contain warring communities such as the Pokot. Otherwise we will all be in the state of nature where everyone would have a right to everything leading to intense conflict and life of man would be , solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short (Thomas Hobbes,the leviathan).
I dont understand how someone can support what the Pokot are doing..


Sorry, for now the govt cannot interfere with the pokots as they are looking for their votes. The mzungu's are too few for their votes to count while the kiuks in Laikipia are already mortgaged to the govt party so they will have to wait till after elections.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
Njung'e
#62 Posted : Wednesday, July 26, 2017 12:26:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/7/2007
Posts: 11,935
Location: Nairobi
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
[quote=sanity][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=simonkabz]

Sorry, for now the govt cannot interfere with the pokots as they are looking for their votes. The mzungu's are too few for their votes to count while the kiuks in Laikipia are already mortgaged to the govt party so they will have to wait till after elections.


You are right. Won't be surprised if they are hit mercilessly after the election, moreso if UMK gets back.
Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
Kusadikika
#63 Posted : Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:21:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
Njung'e wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
[quote=sanity][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=simonkabz]

Sorry, for now the govt cannot interfere with the pokots as they are looking for their votes. The mzungu's are too few for their votes to count while the kiuks in Laikipia are already mortgaged to the govt party so they will have to wait till after elections.


You are right. Won't be surprised if they are hit mercilessly after the election, moreso if UMK gets back.


The Pokot are not Mungiki. The Mungiki were kawaida people who in their later years decided to engage in Mungiki activities. A Pokot in the plains of Baringo or Laikipia does not know any other way of life. The life of herding his cattle, taking it where there is pasture and water and protecting what he has by any means necessary and raiding neighboring communities to get more is HIS LIFE. That is how they know how live, that is how they live.

If anybody in government makes any decision to deal with the problem, this is what they must deal with. A people's way of life.

In my opinion the most effective way to deal with this would be construct water pans and drill bore holes all over the Pokot territory in West Pokot, Baringo and Laikipia. Taking up arms or engaging KDF would be a grave mistake that would only kick the can down the road.
quicksand
#64 Posted : Wednesday, July 26, 2017 5:05:14 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
Kusadikika wrote:
Njung'e wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
[quote=sanity][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=simonkabz]

Sorry, for now the govt cannot interfere with the pokots as they are looking for their votes. The mzungu's are too few for their votes to count while the kiuks in Laikipia are already mortgaged to the govt party so they will have to wait till after elections.


You are right. Won't be surprised if they are hit mercilessly after the election, moreso if UMK gets back.


The Pokot are not Mungiki. The Mungiki were kawaida people who in their later years decided to engage in Mungiki activities. A Pokot in the plains of Baringo or Laikipia does not know any other way of life. The life of herding his cattle, taking it where there is pasture and water and protecting what he has by any means necessary and raiding neighboring communities to get more is HIS LIFE. That is how they know how live, that is how they live.

If anybody in government makes any decision to deal with the problem, this is what they must deal with. A people's way of life.

In my opinion the most effective way to deal with this would be construct water pans and drill bore holes all over the Pokot territory in West Pokot, Baringo and Laikipia. Taking up arms or engaging KDF would be a grave mistake that would only kick the can down the road.

Water pans and boreholes won't regrow pastures burned off by drought.
An idealist is one who when his ideas about life collide with reality insists it is reality which must change. A hundred years ago just about everybody in Africa used to run around half naked in leather sarongs, circumcising girls, burning off forests and savannas to cultivate, spearing lions as a rite of passage...among other things.
Can't do that anymore. Hey presto! It is the 21st century. It arrived for everyone, including the Pokot, and we all have to hustle along with it. I don't know where you get the idea that these pastoralists are justified to take up arms and mow down the rest of the Kenyans.

Kusadikika
#65 Posted : Wednesday, July 26, 2017 5:34:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
quicksand wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
Njung'e wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
[quote=sanity][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=simonkabz]

Sorry, for now the govt cannot interfere with the pokots as they are looking for their votes. The mzungu's are too few for their votes to count while the kiuks in Laikipia are already mortgaged to the govt party so they will have to wait till after elections.


You are right. Won't be surprised if they are hit mercilessly after the election, moreso if UMK gets back.


The Pokot are not Mungiki. The Mungiki were kawaida people who in their later years decided to engage in Mungiki activities. A Pokot in the plains of Baringo or Laikipia does not know any other way of life. The life of herding his cattle, taking it where there is pasture and water and protecting what he has by any means necessary and raiding neighboring communities to get more is HIS LIFE. That is how they know how live, that is how they live.

If anybody in government makes any decision to deal with the problem, this is what they must deal with. A people's way of life.

In my opinion the most effective way to deal with this would be construct water pans and drill bore holes all over the Pokot territory in West Pokot, Baringo and Laikipia. Taking up arms or engaging KDF would be a grave mistake that would only kick the can down the road.

Water pans and boreholes won't regrow pastures burned off by drought.
An idealist is one who when his ideas about life collide with reality insists it is reality which must change. A hundred years ago just about everybody in Africa used to run around half naked in leather sarongs, circumcising girls, burning off forests and savannas to cultivate, spearing lions as a rite of passage...among other things.
Can't do that anymore. Hey presto! It is the 21st century. It arrived for everyone, including the Pokot, and we all have to hustle along with it. I don't know where you get the idea that these pastoralists are justified to take up arms and mow down the rest of the Kenyans.



Since we are all nice modern 21st Century people and we have a capable and modern army with equipment why don't we just kill all of them and get rid of them once and for all? The Pokot do not have newspapers, TV, Radio and internet to cry out to the rest of the world the atrocities that have been committed against their way of life so the only one sided story we have is that they are savages who are mowing down the rest of Kenyans.

Drought comes and goes. Water pans and boreholes will mitigate the effects of future droughts not solve the problems of the current drought.


21st century or not my point is that no indigenous Kenyan is more Kenyan than another and for far too long sedentary Kenyans have had nothing but contempt for the pastoralist Kenyans only because they can sit down at their desks and draw up maps and then trick whole populations out of their land. I cannot with any conscience be on the side of Kuki Gallman against the Pokot. Sorry. The government must deal with the Pokot as people and not a nuisance.
AlphDoti
#66 Posted : Sunday, November 05, 2017 6:36:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Dahatre wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:


98,000 acres fenced off so that a few white people can live like this:


While your cows (your only way of life) are dying.

Watched a talk by a Kenyan conservationist Mordecai Ogada based on his book “The Big Conservation Lie” It gave me a different perspective:

In short..follow the money:
-White conservationist get a lot of money donated to them to conserve the animals, essentially for their fellow tourists who also pay for the privilege to come see the animals. Some of the money is for “science” provided by conservation agencies/USAID etc and the grants are unmonitored

-There is an uncanny mapping of those ‘conserved’ lands to where natural resources have been recently discovered.

-Conservation in Kenya means building fences to keep out people that have grazed those lands for centuries.

-Activities of conservation agencies includes birth control-you know…we need for people not to reproduce so much…So animals can have priority.

The talk is long but worth a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_YuC29wS0c

Where I come from, to massacre animals is a curse!

Kusadikika
#67 Posted : Sunday, November 05, 2017 8:21:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
AlphDoti wrote:
Dahatre wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:


98,000 acres fenced off so that a few white people can live like this:


While your cows (your only way of life) are dying.

Watched a talk by a Kenyan conservationist Mordecai Ogada based on his book “The Big Conservation Lie” It gave me a different perspective:

In short..follow the money:
-White conservationist get a lot of money donated to them to conserve the animals, essentially for their fellow tourists who also pay for the privilege to come see the animals. Some of the money is for “science” provided by conservation agencies/USAID etc and the grants are unmonitored

-There is an uncanny mapping of those ‘conserved’ lands to where natural resources have been recently discovered.

-Conservation in Kenya means building fences to keep out people that have grazed those lands for centuries.

-Activities of conservation agencies includes birth control-you know…we need for people not to reproduce so much…So animals can have priority.

The talk is long but worth a listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_YuC29wS0c

Where I come from, to massacre animals is a curse!



This is totally unacceptable. This is worse than burning peoples houses. The Jubilee government is making a huge mistake here. Pastoralist communities occupy more than 2 thirds of the country and they all hold livestock very dear to them. They are also the most militaristic communities in Kenya. The Pokot are enemies with the Turkana and they will always have skirmishes and steal livestock from each other but they do not massacre the animals. If there is one thing that can unite the Pokot, Turkana and all other pastoralists together it is something like this. In a government that has no respect for their animals and their way of life they have a common enemy. NASA followers are talking about secession. A region cannot secede without an army or military force and Jubilee by doing something like this is giving them an army.
Dahatre
#68 Posted : Sunday, November 05, 2017 9:07:34 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
So who owns the land that the pastoralist's were grazing on?
hardwood
#69 Posted : Sunday, November 05, 2017 11:18:07 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
All trespassers, man and beast, will be shot. Why weren't you people complaining when the herders were killing policemen and ranchers? Btw these heavily armed immigrant herders have also killed and raped very many small scale farmers. And they shoot at the police while usimg cattle as a shield. Also, no herder will drive animals into someone's property (rancher or peasant) if they know the cattle will be shot.

https://www.the-star.co....ts-in-laikipia_c1595921

https://www.the-star.co....kipia-violence_c1531485

..
harrydre
#70 Posted : Monday, November 06, 2017 6:19:20 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
hardwood wrote:
All trespassers, man and beast, will be shot. Why weren't you people complaining when the herders were killing policemen and ranchers? Btw these heavily armed immigrant herders have also killed and raped very many small scale farmers. And they shoot at the police while usimg cattle as a shield. Also, no herder will drive animals into someone's property (rancher or peasant) if they know the cattle will be shot.

https://www.the-star.co....ts-in-laikipia_c1595921

https://www.the-star.co....kipia-violence_c1531485

..


That was the right thing.They have always used cattle as the shield. Iwe funzo.
i.am.back!!!!
hardwood
#71 Posted : Monday, November 06, 2017 9:22:51 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
How are the police supposed to deal with hawa watu? Everyone remembers kapedo and suguta valley.

https://www.standardmedi...-highest-loss-to-police




Kusadikika
#72 Posted : Monday, November 06, 2017 5:11:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
People in Central Kenya took up arms to fight for independence because of being treated like this by the colonial government. The current Kenya government needs to find a better way of dealing with pastoralist communities. Listen to them and deal with them fairly because they are human beings. If that is too hard for hardliners like hardwood to swallow deal with them fairly because they have guns. Nobody wins in a war.

Treating the Samburu like this is just wrong:

http://www.businessdaily...5068-12gch3r/index.html

hardwood
#73 Posted : Monday, November 06, 2017 7:20:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Kusadikika wrote:
People in Central Kenya took up arms to fight for independence because of being treated like this by the colonial government. The current Kenya government needs to find a better way of dealing with pastoralist communities. Listen to them and deal with them fairly because they are human beings. If that is too hard for hardliners like hardwood to swallow deal with them fairly because they have guns. Nobody wins in a war.

Treating the Samburu like this is just wrong:

http://www.businessdaily...5068-12gch3r/index.html



We need a "stand your ground" law like in the US and we should arm all kenyans so that they can defend themselves from intruders, like these pastoralists. That way even the small holder farmers can defend themselves. How can armed raiders storm your home and rape your wife and daughter as you watch, then steal your cows and goats? Then you say that we should listen to them and handle them fairly because that is their lifestyle? Are you mad? The only way to handle them should be a bullet in the head.

https://en.wikipedia.org...i/Stand-your-ground_law

http://www.nation.co.ke/...xhtml-bdp8qrz/index.html
Dahatre
#74 Posted : Monday, November 06, 2017 7:54:11 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
Again I ask--On whose land were these pastrolists trespassing?
Dahatre
#75 Posted : Monday, November 06, 2017 8:17:06 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 12/21/2009
Posts: 602
Kusadikika wrote:
People in Central Kenya took up arms to fight for independence because of being treated like this by the colonial government. The current Kenya government needs to find a better way of dealing with pastoralist communities. Listen to them and deal with them fairly because they are human beings. If that is too hard for hardliners like hardwood to swallow deal with them fairly because they have guns. Nobody wins in a war.

Treating the Samburu like this is just wrong:

http://www.businessdaily...5068-12gch3r/index.html


We will wake up one of these days and find ourselves recolonized..The colonizers aided by our government.
Remember Boris Johnson jetting in here with 500M in drought aid?
I bet that was money to enhance "security" to keep the wazungu occupying lapsset land from bolting, before the extraction of oil in Turkana and SS starts.
hardwood
#76 Posted : Monday, November 13, 2017 10:36:55 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Dahatre wrote:
Again I ask--On whose land were these pastrolists trespassing?



http://www.nation.co.ke/...184418-brdlq1/index.html
AlphDoti
#77 Posted : Monday, November 13, 2017 12:14:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Dahatre wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
People in Central Kenya took up arms to fight for independence because of being treated like this by the colonial government. The current Kenya government needs to find a better way of dealing with pastoralist communities. Listen to them and deal with them fairly because they are human beings. If that is too hard for hardliners like hardwood to swallow deal with them fairly because they have guns. Nobody wins in a war.

Treating the Samburu like this is just wrong:

http://www.businessdaily...5068-12gch3r/index.html


We will wake up one of these days and find ourselves recolonized..The colonizers aided by our government.
Remember Boris Johnson jetting in here with 500M in drought aid?
I bet that was money to enhance "security" to keep the wazungu occupying lapsset land from bolting, before the extraction of oil in Turkana and SS starts.

@Dahatre at this rate, this is a possibility... Remember we were colonized before thanks to collaborators! It took so much deaths to reclaim our dignity... which we're now "reselling"...
Lolest!
#78 Posted : Monday, November 13, 2017 12:23:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
Dahatre wrote:
Again I ask--On whose land were these pastrolists trespassing?

Land owners with title?

If we are to be okay with these raids, we must be okay with raids in other areas as well. Should a Maasai guy drive his cows to Karen/Kitengela/Naivasha/Ongata Rongai/Ngong because it's ancestral land?
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
Nandwa
#79 Posted : Monday, November 13, 2017 10:39:40 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/17/2009
Posts: 1,049
AlphDoti wrote:
Dahatre wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
People in Central Kenya took up arms to fight for independence because of being treated like this by the colonial government. The current Kenya government needs to find a better way of dealing with pastoralist communities. Listen to them and deal with them fairly because they are human beings. If that is too hard for hardliners like hardwood to swallow deal with them fairly because they have guns. Nobody wins in a war.

Treating the Samburu like this is just wrong:

http://www.businessdaily...5068-12gch3r/index.html


We will wake up one of these days and find ourselves recolonized..The colonizers aided by our government.
Remember Boris Johnson jetting in here with 500M in drought aid?
I bet that was money to enhance "security" to keep the wazungu occupying lapsset land from bolting, before the extraction of oil in Turkana and SS starts.

@Dahatre at this rate, this is a possibility... Remember we were colonized before thanks to collaborators! It took so much deaths to reclaim our dignity... which we're now "reselling"...

This reminds me of what one Imam was reported in the media earlier today admonishing RAO for traveling to US/UK to bad-mouth Kenya.
Just as absolute power corrupts leaders, so does absolute fanaticism blind the people from logic
FRM2011
#80 Posted : Tuesday, November 14, 2017 10:56:57 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/5/2010
Posts: 2,459
Kusadikika wrote:
quicksand wrote:
Kusadikika wrote:
Njung'e wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
[quote=sanity][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=hardwood][quote=Kusadikika][quote=simonkabz]

Sorry, for now the govt cannot interfere with the pokots as they are looking for their votes. The mzungu's are too few for their votes to count while the kiuks in Laikipia are already mortgaged to the govt party so they will have to wait till after elections.


You are right. Won't be surprised if they are hit mercilessly after the election, moreso if UMK gets back.


The Pokot are not Mungiki. The Mungiki were kawaida people who in their later years decided to engage in Mungiki activities. A Pokot in the plains of Baringo or Laikipia does not know any other way of life. The life of herding his cattle, taking it where there is pasture and water and protecting what he has by any means necessary and raiding neighboring communities to get more is HIS LIFE. That is how they know how live, that is how they live.

If anybody in government makes any decision to deal with the problem, this is what they must deal with. A people's way of life.

In my opinion the most effective way to deal with this would be construct water pans and drill bore holes all over the Pokot territory in West Pokot, Baringo and Laikipia. Taking up arms or engaging KDF would be a grave mistake that would only kick the can down the road.

Water pans and boreholes won't regrow pastures burned off by drought.
An idealist is one who when his ideas about life collide with reality insists it is reality which must change. A hundred years ago just about everybody in Africa used to run around half naked in leather sarongs, circumcising girls, burning off forests and savannas to cultivate, spearing lions as a rite of passage...among other things.
Can't do that anymore. Hey presto! It is the 21st century. It arrived for everyone, including the Pokot, and we all have to hustle along with it. I don't know where you get the idea that these pastoralists are justified to take up arms and mow down the rest of the Kenyans.



Since we are all nice modern 21st Century people and we have a capable and modern army with equipment why don't we just kill all of them and get rid of them once and for all? The Pokot do not have newspapers, TV, Radio and internet to cry out to the rest of the world the atrocities that have been committed against their way of life so the only one sided story we have is that they are savages who are mowing down the rest of Kenyans.

Drought comes and goes. Water pans and boreholes will mitigate the effects of future droughts not solve the problems of the current drought.


21st century or not my point is that no indigenous Kenyan is more Kenyan than another and for far too long sedentary Kenyans have had nothing but contempt for the pastoralist Kenyans only because they can sit down at their desks and draw up maps and then trick whole populations out of their land. I cannot with any conscience be on the side of Kuki Gallman against the Pokot. Sorry. The government must deal with the Pokot as people and not a nuisance.


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You have opted to side with the uncomfortable truth rather than the convenient lie. My respects.

Right is right even when nobody is doing it.
Wrong is wrong even when everybody is doing it.
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