Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
Other religious discourse
Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 1,320
|
Muriel wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:Muriel wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:Insanity on both sides of this debate.
The creator of the universe pitting one part of his creation against another.
Insane. Mtu Biz I do not seek or promote common ground between religions and faiths. I am not party to inter-faith dialogue. Please encumber me not given that I have high regard of you as I make the point that I do not regard "different faiths one God" highly. You have reffered to yourself five times. My post has nothing to do with you. Oh! Accept my apologies to you, kind sir! No offence taken my brother, no apology to me required... just pointing you to yourself 
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
|
Mtu Biz wrote:Muriel wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:Muriel wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:Insanity on both sides of this debate.
The creator of the universe pitting one part of his creation against another.
Insane. Mtu Biz I do not seek or promote common ground between religions and faiths. I am not party to inter-faith dialogue. Please encumber me not given that I have high regard of you as I make the point that I do not regard "different faiths one God" highly. You have reffered to yourself five times. My post has nothing to do with you. Oh! Accept my apologies to you, kind sir! No offence taken my brother, no apology to me required... just pointing you to yourself Excellent! Thank you, Mtu Biz.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
|
AlphDoti wrote:Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
@muriel, let us discuss comparative issues, because when it come to your attitude on world conflicts, I put that aside. You talk about things you have little knowledge about... "Oh murtad", "oh Muslim", yet you don't really know the meaning.
Your attack on a form of religious belief is too simplified and ignorant of world affairs. And demonization of Muslims as a whole makes your response discriminative.
Why do I say this? Your assertion that war in Middle East or twin-tower bombing or ISIS is caused by religion was ridiculous. It may look like it, but it may not be. So you're rushing into conclusion too fast.
You need to read more about these kind of politics, and you will find that while some participants happily shout the name of God (allegedly), religion has nothing to do with these wars.
These wars have to do more with economic and political collapse than religion or ancient hatred. Why? Take Israel-Palestinian conflict for example, these people lived peacefully for those years. But now?
So I tell you most of these things are propaganda, and I will say it from the relative safety of my country Kenya. Whether you like it or not Kenya is my country. I pay tax, some of my kin are in the military defending the country (even from outside the country). Some of my kin are in important functions of this country, participating nation building. And I participate in what I participate in to build the country. Don't think the country is yours. And don't think the country only belongs to Christians. If you think so, then you're naive and discriminative.
Alphdoti, I am sorry if I have come across as demonizing Muslims. I thought I was fixing you only as an individual. I am sorry. Please forgive me. I hence will not discuss politics with you. I want to discuss doctrine only with you. You can explore the political angle with another Wazuan. I want to explore Mohammed, Allah and the Qur'an and the 'salvation' of the boy. I want to revert back to doctrine as interpreted by Muslims (including the Islamic State) and Mohammed of Abraham, the boy, the fine sheep and Allah. Quote:37:107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice. That is going to be my theme text. @muriel, no problem brother. I just wanted to let you know that sometimes what you see happening in the world has more to it than you are told. So please be aware of " False flag terrorism", which are staged operations conducted by governments, or corporations designed to deceive the public. The government forces pretend to be a targeted enemy while attacking their own forces or people. Then the attack is then falsely blamed on the enemy in order to justify going to war against that enemy. Otherwise, I'm ready for the discussion of your theme. Then go right ahead. The boy was 'saved'. Allah was his 'saviour'.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
@muriel, let us discuss comparative issues, because when it come to your attitude on world conflicts, I put that aside. You talk about things you have little knowledge about... "Oh murtad", "oh Muslim", yet you don't really know the meaning.
Your attack on a form of religious belief is too simplified and ignorant of world affairs. And demonization of Muslims as a whole makes your response discriminative.
Why do I say this? Your assertion that war in Middle East or twin-tower bombing or ISIS is caused by religion was ridiculous. It may look like it, but it may not be. So you're rushing into conclusion too fast.
You need to read more about these kind of politics, and you will find that while some participants happily shout the name of God (allegedly), religion has nothing to do with these wars.
These wars have to do more with economic and political collapse than religion or ancient hatred. Why? Take Israel-Palestinian conflict for example, these people lived peacefully for those years. But now?
So I tell you most of these things are propaganda, and I will say it from the relative safety of my country Kenya. Whether you like it or not Kenya is my country. I pay tax, some of my kin are in the military defending the country (even from outside the country). Some of my kin are in important functions of this country, participating nation building. And I participate in what I participate in to build the country. Don't think the country is yours. And don't think the country only belongs to Christians. If you think so, then you're naive and discriminative.
Alphdoti, I am sorry if I have come across as demonizing Muslims. I thought I was fixing you only as an individual. I am sorry. Please forgive me. I hence will not discuss politics with you. I want to discuss doctrine only with you. You can explore the political angle with another Wazuan. I want to explore Mohammed, Allah and the Qur'an and the 'salvation' of the boy. I want to revert back to doctrine as interpreted by Muslims (including the Islamic State) and Mohammed of Abraham, the boy, the fine sheep and Allah. Quote:37:107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice. That is going to be my theme text. @muriel, no problem brother. I just wanted to let you know that sometimes what you see happening in the world has more to it than you are told. So please be aware of " False flag terrorism", which are staged operations conducted by governments, or corporations designed to deceive the public. The government forces pretend to be a targeted enemy while attacking their own forces or people. Then the attack is then falsely blamed on the enemy in order to justify going to war against that enemy. Otherwise, I'm ready for the discussion of your theme. Then go right ahead. The boy was 'saved'. Allah was his 'saviour'. Saved from what?
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
|
Alphdoti,
The boy was saved from what Allah ransomed him with a great sacrifice.
Because he was to be sacrificed or killed, he was ransomed, or redeemed, from death.
Allah can save. The Qur'an, as it records the story, is right, right?
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
|
AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith. How?
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Muriel wrote:
Alphdoti,
The boy was saved from what Allah ransomed him with a great sacrifice.
Because he was to be sacrificed or killed, he was ransomed, or redeemed, from death.
Allah can save. The Qur'an, as it records the story, is right, right?
@muriel, I had already responded to this. I'm not sure if you didn't understand. But I'll explain again. I can start by asking you, who was supposed to be forgiven by the sacrifice of a son? You see, my friend @muriel, this was just a test, it was obviously a trial, by Almighty God to Abraham (pbuh). That's why Allah said " thou hast already fulfilled thy vision" This was a test from God to Abraham. This was not to kill anyone. This was not to wipe anybody's sins. It was just testing Abraham's willingness to the work of Allah (Almighty God). Post #711Post #776
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith. How? There are so many verses in Quran which prove that we follow the Quran and the Hadiths (sayings of the prophet) 3:31. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me..."3:32. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger..."3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise)...4:59. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...So obeying the prophet means obeying what is in Quran that he came with from Allah. Obeying him means following his ways and teachings. I will give you an example:@symbols told his brother: "mother says: clean your room or no watching TV for a whole month". His brother goes and cleans his room. Now his brother cleaning his room was obediance to who? His mother or @symbols? Of course he would be obeying his mother, because his mother is the one who ordered him to clean his room. @Symbols is just a conveyor of the mother’s words (her orders). But, when the Prophet (pbuh) himself (with his words the hadiths and Sunnah) orders the believers to do something or forbids them from something, then doing what he says would be called obedience to him, because the words are his. So you notice in many verses above, the word "obey" is repeated. First Quran says "obey Allah" then "obey" again before mentioning the Prophet. This is to stress that we must obey the Messenger himself, in what he tells us. IMPORTANT: Besides, there is no contradiction in what Hadiths say to what the Quran says.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
|
AlphDoti wrote:@muriel, I had already responded to this. I'm not sure if you didn't understand. But I'll explain again. I can start by asking you, who was supposed to be forgiven by the sacrifice of a son? You see, my friend @muriel, this was just a test, it was obviously a trial, by Almighty God to Abraham (pbuh). That's why Allah said " thou hast already fulfilled thy vision" This was a test from God to Abraham. This was not to kill anyone. This was not to wipe anybody's sins. It was just testing Abraham's willingness to the work of Allah (Almighty God). Post #711Post #776 You have been answering a question that I have not asked. A question that no one has asked. You have not responded to anything. You, like an insane man in the market, is talking to yourself. I did not suggest the boy is symbolic of anyone or of anything. If anything its you who introduced the 'symbolic' aspect that you are now trying desperately to steer and escape from. As if you think I will forget. I will come to the symbolic aspect in due time, now I am doing literal. Please take the story just as it reads, do not add suggestive things or symbolic that you fear or dislike and then address those fears and dislikes and symbolism. I now not asking a question but I am informing you.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
|
AlphDoti wrote:@muriel, I had already responded to this. I'm not sure if you didn't understand. But I'll explain again. I can start by asking you, who was supposed to be forgiven by the sacrifice of a son? You see, my friend @muriel, this was just a test, it was obviously a trial, by Almighty God to Abraham (pbuh). That's why Allah said " thou hast already fulfilled thy vision" This was a test from God to Abraham. This was not to kill anyone. This was not to wipe anybody's sins. It was just testing Abraham's willingness to the work of Allah (Almighty God). Post #711Post #776 Lets brake down the story again for your sake. 1. Abraham asked for a child and Allah gave him one. 2. Allah gave him a dream to sacrifice the boy. 3. Abraham discusses this dream with the boy. 4. The boy tells Abraham to do as Allah commands. 5. The boy did not tell Abraham to visualise it, but to do it.6. Abraham puts the boy down upon his forehead. 7. Allah then calls Abraham and informs him. If Allah had not called Abraham, Abraham was going to make the sacrifice like he made all other sacrifices he had been making. He was going to kill the thing to be sacrificed in this case the boy. The boy was to be killed but he was not killed because Allah says he (Allah) ransomed him with a great sacrifice. The boy was saved by Allah. Allah can save. Allah is a saviour. Allah is a 'ransomer'. A redeemer. You are desperate to deny this aspect of Allah and its ok. For Allah is NOT a saviour or a redeemer. I know that full well. So who put these vile teaching of Allah ransoming someone with a great sacrifice? Mohammed? Did Mohammed write a lie about Allah that he can ransom someone yet Allah does not ransom? Or did Allah tell Mohammed a lie about himself that he ransoms yet he does not? Someone is lying here thinking I will not find out. It is either Mohammed or Allah.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
|
AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith. How? There are so many verses in Quran which prove that we follow the Quran and the Hadiths (sayings of the prophet) 3:31. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me..."3:32. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger..."3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise)...4:59. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...So obeying the prophet means obeying what is in Quran that he came with from Allah. Obeying him means following his ways and teachings. I will give you an example:@symbols told his brother: "mother says: clean your room or no watching TV for a whole month". His brother goes and cleans his room. Now his brother cleaning his room was obediance to who? His mother or @symbols? Of course he would be obeying his mother, because his mother is the one who ordered him to clean his room. @Symbols is just a conveyor of the mother’s words (her orders). But, when the Prophet (pbuh) himself (with his words the hadiths and Sunnah) orders the believers to do something or forbids them from something, then doing what he says would be called obedience to him, because the words are his. So you notice in many verses above, the word "obey" is repeated. First Quran says "obey Allah" then "obey" again before mentioning the Prophet. This is to stress that we must obey the Messenger himself, in what he tells us. IMPORTANT: Besides, there is no contradiction in what Hadiths say to what the Quran says. I believe the link has addressed all the issues you've raised. From what you've provided,there is no support for hadiths/sunnah from the Quran just your views which contradict what the Quran says.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@muriel, I had already responded to this. I'm not sure if you didn't understand. But I'll explain again. I can start by asking you, who was supposed to be forgiven by the sacrifice of a son? You see, my friend @muriel, this was just a test, it was obviously a trial, by Almighty God to Abraham (pbuh). That's why Allah said " thou hast already fulfilled thy vision" This was a test from God to Abraham. This was not to kill anyone. This was not to wipe anybody's sins. It was just testing Abraham's willingness to the work of Allah (Almighty God). Post #711Post #776 Lets brake down the story again for your sake. 1. Abraham asked for a child and Allah gave him one. 2. Allah gave him a dream to sacrifice the boy. 3. Abraham discusses this dream with the boy. 4. The boy tells Abraham to do as Allah commands. 5. The boy did not tell Abraham to visualise it, but to do it.6. Abraham puts the boy down upon his forehead. 7. Allah then calls Abraham and informs him. If Allah had not called Abraham, Abraham was going to make the sacrifice like he made all other sacrifices he had been making. He was going to kill the thing to be sacrificed in this case the boy. The boy was to be killed but he was not killed because Allah says he (Allah) ransomed him with a great sacrifice. The boy was saved by Allah. Allah can save. Allah is a saviour. Allah is a 'ransomer'. A redeemer. You are desperate to deny this aspect of Allah and its ok. For Allah is NOT a saviour or a redeemer. I know that full well. So who put these vile teaching of Allah ransoming someone with a great sacrifice? Mohammed? Did Mohammed write a lie about Allah that he can ransom someone yet Allah does not ransom? Or did Allah tell Mohammed a lie about himself that he ransoms yet he does not? Someone is lying here thinking I will not find out. It is either Mohammed or Allah. First, I want to tell you that Allah (this is the name of Almighty God), Does everything, He runs all things. He does not need to ask you or me or Abraham why He Does the things He do. We have to follow the system of order He has put. Otherwise, there will be chaos. Now, about this dream of Abraham. I told you this was a test from God. He was testing Abraham. This should not be so hard about understanding unless you have preconceived mine, that is why you want to conclude that there is lies there. There is no lie. The story happened exactly the way yo put it. You say the son of Abraham was saved. I asked you; what was he saved from? Please answer that question then we continue.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith. How? There are so many verses in Quran which prove that we follow the Quran and the Hadiths (sayings of the prophet) 3:31. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me..."3:32. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger..."3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise)...4:59. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...So obeying the prophet means obeying what is in Quran that he came with from Allah. Obeying him means following his ways and teachings. I will give you an example:@symbols told his brother: "mother says: clean your room or no watching TV for a whole month". His brother goes and cleans his room. Now his brother cleaning his room was obediance to who? His mother or @symbols? Of course he would be obeying his mother, because his mother is the one who ordered him to clean his room. @Symbols is just a conveyor of the mother’s words (her orders). But, when the Prophet (pbuh) himself (with his words the hadiths and Sunnah) orders the believers to do something or forbids them from something, then doing what he says would be called obedience to him, because the words are his. So you notice in many verses above, the word "obey" is repeated. First Quran says "obey Allah" then "obey" again before mentioning the Prophet. This is to stress that we must obey the Messenger himself, in what he tells us. IMPORTANT: Besides, there is no contradiction in what Hadiths say to what the Quran says. I believe the link has addressed all the issues you've raised. From what you've provided,there is no support for hadiths/sunnah from the Quran just your views which contradict what the Quran says. I don't understand your conclusion. Please re-phrase.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
|
AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith. How? There are so many verses in Quran which prove that we follow the Quran and the Hadiths (sayings of the prophet) 3:31. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me..."3:32. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger..."3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise)...4:59. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...So obeying the prophet means obeying what is in Quran that he came with from Allah. Obeying him means following his ways and teachings. I will give you an example:@symbols told his brother: "mother says: clean your room or no watching TV for a whole month". His brother goes and cleans his room. Now his brother cleaning his room was obediance to who? His mother or @symbols? Of course he would be obeying his mother, because his mother is the one who ordered him to clean his room. @Symbols is just a conveyor of the mother’s words (her orders). But, when the Prophet (pbuh) himself (with his words the hadiths and Sunnah) orders the believers to do something or forbids them from something, then doing what he says would be called obedience to him, because the words are his. So you notice in many verses above, the word "obey" is repeated. First Quran says "obey Allah" then "obey" again before mentioning the Prophet. This is to stress that we must obey the Messenger himself, in what he tells us. IMPORTANT: Besides, there is no contradiction in what Hadiths say to what the Quran says. I believe the link has addressed all the issues you've raised. From what you've provided,there is no support for hadiths/sunnah from the Quran just your views which contradict what the Quran says. I don't understand your conclusion. Please re-phrase. The explanation you are trying to use to justify the hadiths/sunnah has already been addressed in the link.The Quran refutes hadiths/sunnah.
|
|
|
Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
|
AlphDoti wrote:
First, I want to tell you that Allah (this is the name of Almighty God), Does everything, He runs all things. He does not need to ask you or me or Abraham why He Does the things He do. We have to follow the system of order He has put. Otherwise, there will be chaos.
Now, about this dream of Abraham. I told you this was a test from God. He was testing Abraham. This should not be so hard about understanding unless you have preconceived mine, that is why you want to conclude that there is lies there. There is no lie. The story happened exactly the way yo put it.
You say the son of Abraham was saved. I asked you; what was he saved from?
Please answer that question then we continue.
Surely I do not have shida ya matamuchi. If it was a test, then it had to be 'done'. The verb (action word) is 'do'. The boy told Abraham to 'do it'. Tests, like the one Allah gave Abraham, can only be passed if they are 'done'. If Allah was testing Abraham, then Abraham had to 'do' the test. The test was to sacrifice the boy. Sacrifice the way all other sacrifices were done. Like all sacrifices, the thing to be sacrificed was to be killed. Abraham was in the process of killing the boy - first he had already put the boy's forehead down but before he went to step 2 of slicing the neck Allah intervened. This is what the boy was saved from. He was saved from being killed by Abraham. Death. Allah saved him. Allah ransomed him. Allah redeemed him. The way it is written in the Qur'an, Allah even confirms ransoming the boy. Saving him. You know the meaning of ransom?
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith. How? There are so many verses in Quran which prove that we follow the Quran and the Hadiths (sayings of the prophet) 3:31. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me..."3:32. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger..."3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise)...4:59. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...So obeying the prophet means obeying what is in Quran that he came with from Allah. Obeying him means following his ways and teachings. I will give you an example:@symbols told his brother: "mother says: clean your room or no watching TV for a whole month". His brother goes and cleans his room. Now his brother cleaning his room was obediance to who? His mother or @symbols? Of course he would be obeying his mother, because his mother is the one who ordered him to clean his room. @Symbols is just a conveyor of the mother’s words (her orders). But, when the Prophet (pbuh) himself (with his words the hadiths and Sunnah) orders the believers to do something or forbids them from something, then doing what he says would be called obedience to him, because the words are his. So you notice in many verses above, the word "obey" is repeated. First Quran says "obey Allah" then "obey" again before mentioning the Prophet. This is to stress that we must obey the Messenger himself, in what he tells us. IMPORTANT: Besides, there is no contradiction in what Hadiths say to what the Quran says. I believe the link has addressed all the issues you've raised. From what you've provided,there is no support for hadiths/sunnah from the Quran just your views which contradict what the Quran says. I don't understand your conclusion. Please re-phrase. The explanation you are trying to use to justify the hadiths/sunnah has already been addressed in the link.The Quran refutes hadiths/sunnah. That conclusion is according to you. You did not read my response. My explanation does not agree with that link  Let me give you a proof:The Quran in sura Nisa chapter 4:59 says: O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:
First, I want to tell you that Allah (this is the name of Almighty God), Does everything, He runs all things. He does not need to ask you or me or Abraham why He Does the things He do. We have to follow the system of order He has put. Otherwise, there will be chaos.
Now, about this dream of Abraham. I told you this was a test from God. He was testing Abraham. This should not be so hard about understanding unless you have preconceived mine, that is why you want to conclude that there is lies there. There is no lie. The story happened exactly the way yo put it.
You say the son of Abraham was saved. I asked you; what was he saved from?
Please answer that question then we continue.
Surely I do not have shida ya matamuchi. If it was a test, then it had to be 'done'. The verb (action word) is 'do'. The boy told Abraham to 'do it'. Tests, like the one Allah gave Abraham, can only be passed if they are 'done'. If Allah was testing Abraham, then Abraham had to 'do' the test. The test was to sacrifice the boy. Sacrifice the way all other sacrifices were done. Like all sacrifices, the thing to be sacrificed was to be killed. Abraham was in the process of killing the boy - first he had already put the boy's forehead down but before he went to step 2 of slicing the neck Allah intervened. This is what the boy was saved from. He was saved from being killed by Abraham. Death. Allah saved him. Allah ransomed him. Allah redeemed him. The way it is written in the Qur'an, Allah even confirms ransoming the boy. Saving him. You know the meaning of ransom? Ransom means substitute. Almighty God wanted to test the two men (Abraham and his sons), with their will, with self-sacrifice in the service of Allah. When they obeyed the test, God Almighty stopped Abraham from that and substituted for ram. I will give you a simple reply to your atonement idea which you have in Christianity: " The Sould that Sinneth, it Shall Die" Ezekiel 18. In the Bible, we are told the same story. Just as Abrham was about to cut his son, the angel called to Abraham and said: " ...that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky... because you have obeyed me." (Genesis 22:16-18) GOD WAS TESTING HIS OBEDIENCE. WHY IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT?
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
|
AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:symbols wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@symbols my comments? If you want to know about Islam, ask a Muslim who knows his/her deen. Don't ask Maina Kageni or other so-called Muslim experts. That Internet site has been done by critics of Islam, non-Muslims. The Quran has laid down the principles. They don't change, no modification. Hadiths (popularly known as Sunnah) are the words, actions and approvals of the prophet Muhammad (peace & mercy of Allah be upon him). Get it clearly here, so that no one should cheat you. The hadiths/sunnah are the words of prophet. The foundation Quran. These words and actions are in agreement with the Quran. They are in agreement with science, reason and reflection. Hadiths are explanation to the Quran. So the Quran is used together with the Hadiths. Sawa? Understood? If the website is criticizing Islam,then the Qur'an is criticizing Islam.Allah is criticizing Islam! The Quran refutes the hadiths/sunnah. @symbol, no the Quran does not refute Hadith. How? There are so many verses in Quran which prove that we follow the Quran and the Hadiths (sayings of the prophet) 3:31. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me..."3:32. Tell them (O Muhammad SAW): "Obey Allah and the Messenger..."3:132. And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy.4:13. ...and whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise)...4:59. O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best, and most suitable for final determination.4:64. We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed...4:69. And whosoever obeys Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), then they will be in the company of those on whom Allah has bestowed His Grace...4:80. He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed obeyed Allah...5:92. And obey Allah and the Messenger...So obeying the prophet means obeying what is in Quran that he came with from Allah. Obeying him means following his ways and teachings. I will give you an example:@symbols told his brother: "mother says: clean your room or no watching TV for a whole month". His brother goes and cleans his room. Now his brother cleaning his room was obediance to who? His mother or @symbols? Of course he would be obeying his mother, because his mother is the one who ordered him to clean his room. @Symbols is just a conveyor of the mother’s words (her orders). But, when the Prophet (pbuh) himself (with his words the hadiths and Sunnah) orders the believers to do something or forbids them from something, then doing what he says would be called obedience to him, because the words are his. So you notice in many verses above, the word "obey" is repeated. First Quran says "obey Allah" then "obey" again before mentioning the Prophet. This is to stress that we must obey the Messenger himself, in what he tells us. IMPORTANT: Besides, there is no contradiction in what Hadiths say to what the Quran says. I believe the link has addressed all the issues you've raised. From what you've provided,there is no support for hadiths/sunnah from the Quran just your views which contradict what the Quran says. I don't understand your conclusion. Please re-phrase. The explanation you are trying to use to justify the hadiths/sunnah has already been addressed in the link.The Quran refutes hadiths/sunnah. That conclusion is according to you. You did not read my response. My explanation does not agree with that link Let me give you a proof:The Quran in sura Nisa chapter 4:59 says: O ye who believe! obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger. You're seeking your own explanation above what Allah and His Messenger have clarified.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/19/2013 Posts: 2,552
|
AlphDoti wrote:That conclusion is according to you. You did not read my response. My explanation does not agree with that link Yes.Thank you for admitting your explanations don't agree with the Quran.We can discuss your views here
|
|
|
Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
Other religious discourse
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
|