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Referendum Question ? Do we need both Senate and Parliament?
guru267
#31 Posted : Saturday, August 03, 2013 7:16:48 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
But let's remember that this county-based system is working in little Rwanda.


Rwanda is not a democracy unlike Kenya!

whatever Kagame's opinion on devolution is becomes law with no credible debate... I wouldn't be shocked if 97% of governors, senators and mps are from his party!
Another thing is that Rwandans don't have a Raila thorn poking their side!

You can't compare the two situations so simply!


What do you mean when you say Rwanda isn't a democracy? Or that Kenya is a democracy?

What should be plain to us is that everyone must have a voice and power to act, and we are duty bound to facilitate this to all the people of the world.


Ok @ tycho... I dare any Rwandan to air their "new found county voice" against any decision by Kagame & then we see what happens next!


Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
tycho
#32 Posted : Saturday, August 03, 2013 7:34:56 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
But let's remember that this county-based system is working in little Rwanda.


Rwanda is not a democracy unlike Kenya!

whatever Kagame's opinion on devolution is becomes law with no credible debate... I wouldn't be shocked if 97% of governors, senators and mps are from his party!
Another thing is that Rwandans don't have a Raila thorn poking their side!

You can't compare the two situations so simply!


What do you mean when you say Rwanda isn't a democracy? Or that Kenya is a democracy?

What should be plain to us is that everyone must have a voice and power to act, and we are duty bound to facilitate this to all the people of the world.


Ok @ tycho... I dare any Rwandan to air their "new found county voice" against any decision by Kagame & then we see what happens next!




Do you realize the implications of the traditional courts that were used in healing and reconciliation? That's a voice we can't yet afford here in Kenya at the moment.
nakujua
#33 Posted : Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:25:43 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
at times you need a dictator to implement some systems, we won't go anywhere on the devolution road with all the political and personal bickering going on.
especially considering a mojority of kenyans depend on their political "heros" to tell them if whats written on a piece of paper is good for them or not.
guru267
#34 Posted : Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:37:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
But let's remember that this county-based system is working in little Rwanda.


Rwanda is not a democracy unlike Kenya!

whatever Kagame's opinion on devolution is becomes law with no credible debate... I wouldn't be shocked if 97% of governors, senators and mps are from his party!
Another thing is that Rwandans don't have a Raila thorn poking their side!

You can't compare the two situations so simply!


What do you mean when you say Rwanda isn't a democracy? Or that Kenya is a democracy?

What should be plain to us is that everyone must have a voice and power to act, and we are duty bound to facilitate this to all the people of the world.


Ok @ tycho... I dare any Rwandan to air their "new found county voice" against any decision by Kagame & then we see what happens next!




Do you realize the implications of the traditional courts that were used in healing and reconciliation? That's a voice we can't yet afford here in Kenya at the moment.


@tycho what do traditional courts & genocide have to do with anything democracy!

Can a average Kenyan sue Uhuruto??? Yes!
Try and sue Kagame only if you are in need of an urgent appointment with your creator!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
tycho
#35 Posted : Saturday, August 03, 2013 8:55:03 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
But let's remember that this county-based system is working in little Rwanda.


Rwanda is not a democracy unlike Kenya!

whatever Kagame's opinion on devolution is becomes law with no credible debate... I wouldn't be shocked if 97% of governors, senators and mps are from his party!
Another thing is that Rwandans don't have a Raila thorn poking their side!

You can't compare the two situations so simply!


What do you mean when you say Rwanda isn't a democracy? Or that Kenya is a democracy?

What should be plain to us is that everyone must have a voice and power to act, and we are duty bound to facilitate this to all the people of the world.


Ok @ tycho... I dare any Rwandan to air their "new found county voice" against any decision by Kagame & then we see what happens next!




Do you realize the implications of the traditional courts that were used in healing and reconciliation? That's a voice we can't yet afford here in Kenya at the moment.


@tycho what do traditional courts & genocide have to do with anything democracy!

Can a average Kenyan sue Uhuruto??? Yes!
Try and sue Kagame only if you are in need of an urgent appointment with your creator!


Traditional courts have a lot to do with democracy. It implies a common understanding on conduct to the grassroot level, and a shared cultural space for conflict resolution and interest promotion through dialogue, forgiveness and tolerance.

In Kenya it's difficult to sue even a robber. The legal process is so expensive and fraught with 'danger'.
guru267
#36 Posted : Sunday, August 04, 2013 2:23:41 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
But let's remember that this county-based system is working in little Rwanda.


Rwanda is not a democracy unlike Kenya!

whatever Kagame's opinion on devolution is becomes law with no credible debate... I wouldn't be shocked if 97% of governors, senators and mps are from his party!
Another thing is that Rwandans don't have a Raila thorn poking their side!

You can't compare the two situations so simply!


What do you mean when you say Rwanda isn't a democracy? Or that Kenya is a democracy?

What should be plain to us is that everyone must have a voice and power to act, and we are duty bound to facilitate this to all the people of the world.


Ok @ tycho... I dare any Rwandan to air their "new found county voice" against any decision by Kagame & then we see what happens next!




Do you realize the implications of the traditional courts that were used in healing and reconciliation? That's a voice we can't yet afford here in Kenya at the moment.


@tycho what do traditional courts & genocide have to do with anything democracy!

Can a average Kenyan sue Uhuruto??? Yes!
Try and sue Kagame only if you are in need of an urgent appointment with your creator!


Traditional courts have a lot to do with democracy. It implies a common understanding on conduct to the grassroot level, and a shared cultural space for conflict resolution and interest promotion through dialogue, forgiveness and tolerance.

In Kenya it's difficult to sue even a robber. The legal process is so expensive and fraught with 'danger'.


This discussion lacks any objectivity on your part which disappoints me a little considering someone of your intellect!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
Siringi
#37 Posted : Sunday, August 04, 2013 3:00:53 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
@Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly have you ever been to Chigari and talked to any of the locals? Do you have any Mnyarwanda friend!? I will gladly share mine. I will gladly share mine harafu after you are properly schooled in matters Rwanda na sio hiyo upuuzi peddled by lazy kenyan journalists who when posting stories about Rwanda they never venture outside Mugi.'s bar to get the real story from the suburbs and villages. . . ring my digits and buy me a crate of Jamesons.

Lolest! wrote:
Me thinks we should avoid any effort at doing away with devolution. The plain understanding of many voters in the referendum was devolution of resources, not that of power hence the 15pc rule. While the civil society has acted evil in so many ways, they didnt go wrong b championing devolution which is what many Kenyans who felt marginalised wanted. If we are to change this system, let's only do so after 10years. But let's remember that this county-based system is working in little RwandaLaughing out loudly Shame on you .

Shame on you Laughing out loudly Pray
"😖😡KQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder 😏😏 " overheard in Wazua
Siringi
#38 Posted : Sunday, August 04, 2013 6:41:46 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
@tych and @Laughing out loudly chida si devolution, donge? we have been devolving since Nyachae Nyandusi Snr and co. (achi, wachana ni hii kichana yake ya CIC) came up with District focus for Rural development?
Diambo and my beef is with the number of devolved units and county executives. The folly of our devolution experiment , coupled with the arrowroots and bumpkinheads that some governors are has been aptly captured by Philip Ochieng in this short essay.

Kenya's devolution worse than Mwalimu Nyereres Ujamaa Experiment.!

Just a few quotes and parallels with our scenario:
"Today Julius Nyerere – probably our epoch’s most honest political potentate – would not hasten to admonish Kenya with the warning: “Given your present circumstances, please do not try it.”

. . .
But even more vivid in my head is that Mwongozo came a cropper completely. In implementation, devolution proved ignominious.

Why? Because – as should have been obvious to us all along – deep layers of stinking social decay were what the ruling party (Tanu) had succeeded in devolving.

What we had moved from Dar es Salaam to Chamwino – the Ujamaa village that we, in the media, had been made to glorify as the ideal – were administrators and economic managers who, although pouring fulsome praise on Mwalimu and “socialism” at the top of their voices – were rotten to the core.

What Dar es Salaam’s Ikulu had sent to the “grassroots” to implement our devolution programme were incorrigible thieves, liars and braggadocios, men who wallowed like tausi in their own self-importance.

But the question is: Hasn’t anybody seen such waste and ostentation in Kenya’s present devolution process?,"

Nuff said unless you have been nominated to one of the 47 county executives or you are brother to a gabbana.
Let us cost our devolution do away with parliament have a senate only of 57 reps empower the counties which in the first place should have remain 8 the provinces and not the 47 jokes we have. . .
Happy sabbath, Sunday siku ya sermons enda Misa otherwise Ramadhan Karim


"😖😡KQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder 😏😏 " overheard in Wazua
tycho
#39 Posted : Sunday, August 04, 2013 7:19:03 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
tycho wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
But let's remember that this county-based system is working in little Rwanda.


Rwanda is not a democracy unlike Kenya!

whatever Kagame's opinion on devolution is becomes law with no credible debate... I wouldn't be shocked if 97% of governors, senators and mps are from his party!
Another thing is that Rwandans don't have a Raila thorn poking their side!

You can't compare the two situations so simply!


What do you mean when you say Rwanda isn't a democracy? Or that Kenya is a democracy?

What should be plain to us is that everyone must have a voice and power to act, and we are duty bound to facilitate this to all the people of the world.


Ok @ tycho... I dare any Rwandan to air their "new found county voice" against any decision by Kagame & then we see what happens next!




Do you realize the implications of the traditional courts that were used in healing and reconciliation? That's a voice we can't yet afford here in Kenya at the moment.


@tycho what do traditional courts & genocide have to do with anything democracy!

Can a average Kenyan sue Uhuruto??? Yes!
Try and sue Kagame only if you are in need of an urgent appointment with your creator!


Traditional courts have a lot to do with democracy. It implies a common understanding on conduct to the grassroot level, and a shared cultural space for conflict resolution and interest promotion through dialogue, forgiveness and tolerance.

In Kenya it's difficult to sue even a robber. The legal process is so expensive and fraught with 'danger'.


This discussion lacks any objectivity on your part which disappoints me a little considering someone of your intellect!


What do you mean by 'objectivity'?

Stating which country is 'democratic' and which isn't unfortunately will tend to the 'subjective'. For example, is the U.S a Democratic country? I'll tell you it's like the Rwanda you are describing only this time the big Kahuna is 'depersonalized'. Hence Snowden and C.

Objectivity can only be found by looking at how political forces are balanced and their conformity to natural law. And as far as devolution is concerned Rwanda tends to be more Democratic than Kenya with respect to the traditional courts and the spirit they embody.
tycho
#40 Posted : Sunday, August 04, 2013 7:52:08 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Siringi wrote:
@tych and @Laughing out loudly chida si devolution, donge? we have been devolving since Nyachae Nyandusi Snr and co. (achi, wachana ni hii kichana yake ya CIC) came up with District focus for Rural development?
Diambo and my beef is with the number of devolved units and county executives. The folly of our devolution experiment , coupled with the arrowroots and bumpkinheads that some governors are has been aptly captured by Philip Ochieng in this short essay.

Kenya's devolution worse than Mwalimu Nyereres Ujamaa Experiment.!

Just a few quotes and parallels with our scenario:
"Today Julius Nyerere – probably our epoch’s most honest political potentate – would not hasten to admonish Kenya with the warning: “Given your present circumstances, please do not try it.”

. . .
But even more vivid in my head is that Mwongozo came a cropper completely. In implementation, devolution proved ignominious.

Why? Because – as should have been obvious to us all along – deep layers of stinking social decay were what the ruling party (Tanu) had succeeded in devolving.

What we had moved from Dar es Salaam to Chamwino – the Ujamaa village that we, in the media, had been made to glorify as the ideal – were administrators and economic managers who, although pouring fulsome praise on Mwalimu and “socialism” at the top of their voices – were rotten to the core.

What Dar es Salaam’s Ikulu had sent to the “grassroots” to implement our devolution programme were incorrigible thieves, liars and braggadocios, men who wallowed like tausi in their own self-importance.

But the question is: Hasn’t anybody seen such waste and ostentation in Kenya’s present devolution process?,"

Nuff said unless you have been nominated to one of the 47 county executives or you are brother to a gabbana.
Let us cost our devolution do away with parliament have a senate only of 57 reps empower the counties which in the first place should have remain 8 the provinces and not the 47 jokes we have. . .
Happy sabbath, Sunday siku ya sermons enda Misa otherwise Ramadhan Karim




Let me begin with Mr. Ochieng. He's arguing for a strong and enlightened central government, and discourages the devolution of greed and unenlightenment. But isn't he contradicting himself here? Why, if there is enlightenment already can't we devolve it? What's enlightenment?

Now to your argument against the number of devolved units. The units can only increase in number, they can't be decreased. As for the costs, we need not look to the central government for funds. We need new economic models that involve changed government roles.

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