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I cannot be both Kenyan and Christian regarding this proposed constitution
masukuma
#21 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:12:17 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@tmatekwa,
PEV will not be sorted by the constitution. it will be sorted by a change of people's values and morals. you are mistaken to think that this document written by men will for sure stop PEV-like events.
Isn't the Law clear on Murder? is there anyone in Kenya who does not know murder is wrong? but they still do it. Ethnic tensions will not be sorted by this constitution.
Quote:
Cursed is the man who puts his faith in man

@Obi, because people will always break the law, kill each other and steal. why do we bother? Why write this document? you know why? so that on the 40th day we nab the perpetrators - they will pay NDIO AWE FUNZO KWA WENGINE. Having a tight abortion law will not stop abortions, they may go underground. but WHEN THEY ARE CAUGHT, they should not use this draft to defend themselves. the reason a law is written is to for JUSTICE for all!! including the unborn. we must never forget that
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Brewer
#22 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:39:32 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/24/2008
Posts: 238
tmatekwa wrote:
... No longer will i incure car repair costs because of PEV and my stocks portfolio will not depreciate due to lack of investor confidence. These are the real issue affecting me, and not some obscure abortion clause or kadhi court. I tremble at the mere thought of going to the next election under the current constitution. My vote is a big YES. I am a christian and i know that the church will not take care of my kids if i get killed in PEV.


Big lie! The last PEV was caused by bad politics and poor values, chief among which is WE DO NOT VALUE LIFE. Are you not surprised that the politicians have not changed and that, indeed, majority are on the same side? The constitution will not change our poor politics if the attitude of the YES politicians is anything to go by. Intolerance was a big culprit in the last election. The intolerance against the position taken by the church leaders which one can feel even in wazua tells me we have a long way to go and no constitution will change that. What the PEV did was to put us in panic and we are now a country fixing the most important law in panic, that we should take the draft constitution, any constitution. If we have failed to undertake the equally crucial truth and reconciliation, which go to the issue of PEV more directly, we should not make a constitution because of the 'urgency of the moment'.
masukuma
#23 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:48:14 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@Brewer,
well said. what we have a generation to much in a hurry to do things. i keep on reminding you guyz - ESAU lost his birthright because he felt as if one day's hunger would kill him. we are TOO HASTY.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
nanfor1
#24 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 5:18:46 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/30/2009
Posts: 141
Some of the arguments here are bordering on the absurd.

So we shall soon see contraceptives banned because some fundamentalists have decided that people only have sex when making babies.

So only God knows how a feotus is growing is hilarious. Do these people read any books?

Masukuma be very honest with all of us here.

Please do not answer another question.

According to you, if your wife (God bless her) were to have a difficult pregnancy, it is ok for her to die because God wanted her to die?

Hata wakizima taa
masukuma
#25 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:36:13 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@nanfor1, on a personal level. My wife and I had to under go DNC just early this year for the loss of our baby. I never wish for any woman to undergo that pain it was a very painful process. but in the same note, i would not wish for anyone to abuse that process for convenience as we have established is possible.
I know you are about to shout - DOUBLE STANDARDS....and its because you have not read or sought to understand my posts - a fallacy of cherry picking.
For arguments sake I suggest you take a lesson in logical fallacies because all your statements are full of fallacies of generalizations (cherry picking to be exact),Ad hominem, appealing to emotions - BUT I can see right through them.

who said this?
nanfor1 wrote:

So only God knows how a feotus is growing is hilarious. Do these people read any books?


where did you get the idea that
nanfor1 wrote:

according to you, if your wife (God bless her) were to have a difficult pregnancy, it is ok for her to die because God wanted her to die?

or
nanfor1 wrote:

So we shall soon see contraceptives banned because some fundamentalists have decided that people only have sex when making babies.

from ?
Its either you are a magician able to conjure something from nothing or your arguments reek of generalization and appealing to emotions and personal attacks of people you know very little of (i think the latter) - since you know i am right in all my arguments.
take a free lesson here and see yourself in the mirror (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/) and spare us and any other people of your generalizations and faulty arguments.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
masukuma
#26 Posted : Tuesday, May 04, 2010 6:54:19 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@Obi and @nanfor1,
do you think that the article 26 (4) can be amended to be:
Quote:
Abortion is not permitted unless, in the opinion of a trained health professional, that due to the pregnancy there is a need for emergency treatment, or the life or physical health of the mother is in danger.

and an addition of the following in article 260
Quote:
"trained health professional" means a doctor, a gynecologist, a clinical officer

and not endanger the life of the mother and not create a loop-hole for abortion on demand?
with this make you happy? coz indeed it will make me happy! it will allow us to treat medical problems medically and let us map out solutions for social problems in the social realm.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Obi 1 Kanobi
#27 Posted : Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:32:35 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
@ Masukuma

I don't understand you at all but I respect your right to choose, In the best interest of Kenya, please vote NO. I think I can live with not agreeing with you

I am also very happy that Moi will vote NO, vindicates what he has stood for all along and further convinces me that my yes is the right choice.

The church, I am sad and disappointed

"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
Wendz
#28 Posted : Wednesday, May 05, 2010 6:58:30 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
Brewer wrote:
tmatekwa wrote:
... No longer will i incure car repair costs because of PEV and my stocks portfolio will not depreciate due to lack of investor confidence. These are the real issue affecting me, and not some obscure abortion clause or kadhi court. I tremble at the mere thought of going to the next election under the current constitution. My vote is a big YES. I am a christian and i know that the church will not take care of my kids if i get killed in PEV.


Big lie! The last PEV was caused by bad politics and poor values, chief among which is WE DO NOT VALUE LIFE. Are you not surprised that the politicians have not changed and that, indeed, majority are on the same side? The constitution will not change our poor politics if the attitude of the YES politicians is anything to go by. Intolerance was a big culprit in the last election. The intolerance against the position taken by the church leaders which one can feel even in wazua tells me we have a long way to go and no constitution will change that. What the PEV did was to put us in panic and we are now a country fixing the most important law in panic, that we should take the draft constitution, any constitution. If we have failed to undertake the equally crucial truth and reconciliation, which go to the issue of PEV more directly, we should not make a constitution because of the 'urgency of the moment'.


@Brewer

Wouldnt an independent Judiciary have been able to sort out this issue if they know they will not get that midnight call from parliament? Wouldnt the spirit of having strong institutions govern and make people take responsibilities of their actions during their politiking? Wont the police act more responsibly with independent strong institutions? And you know, you can institute a legal proceedings if you feel your right has been infringed at no fee and you are confident you will get justice?
Brewer
#29 Posted : Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:45:42 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/24/2008
Posts: 238
Wendz, I think it is Plato who said that Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.


The PEV did not happen because we do not have good laws, it's the culture of hatred and intolerance driven mainly by our politics. The politicians are still here and resoundingly in the Yes side. Listening to them I hardly think they have changed their ways. I hardly think we have changed our ways.

The constitution like quite a number of our laws is good to have but it is not the 'cure all' prescription for our problems. The No camp, especially the church leaders, have been treated less than kindly for saying No. The process of making the constitution is as important as the constitution itself and cannot employ intolerance and hatred to pass the 'good' constitution.

In terms of content, the constitution needs to be 'values-based' and not because 'we have been at it for too long',or 'it is an expensive exercise'. According to the church leaders the issues they raise ( entrenching abortion on demand & equal treatment of religions) are strong enough to rob the document of most of its 'values'.
masukuma
#30 Posted : Wednesday, May 05, 2010 9:04:20 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
@Wendz, its a fact that evil people look for loop-holes around Laws. in your opinion what do Kenyans Value?
Look at the streets - we have laws that tell you not to jump a red light. Every Driver in Kenya knows it. but they only implement it when a policeman is around.
Changaa - has been a banned brew in Kenya for as long as i remember, people still drink it.
People Keep on ripping each other off in this country of ours. A constitution should be a document that we put our common values in. I promise you if the draft changes things will change for the first few months then we will be back to our usual selfish and narrow-minded selves.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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