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Has the real estate bubble burst????
MugundaMan
#21 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 2:59:11 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,212
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
I got under Sparkly's skin today. I have never seen him this annoyed on Wazoo before. Hata Wakina Double A are very composed even in the heat of debate. Sijui nini imehappen with our good broda. I hope it is not because he is upset that his HAFR mkebe stock is headed for the ground Laughing out loudly
sparkly
#22 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 4:08:05 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
MugundaMan wrote:
Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
I got under Sparkly's skin today. I have never seen him this annoyed on Wazoo before. Hata Wakina Double A are very composed even in the heat of debate. Sijui nini imehappen with our good broda. I hope it is not because he is upset that his HAFR mkebe stock is headed for the ground Laughing out loudly


I will deal with you later. Let me close some outstanding matters at work first.
Life is short. Live passionately.
VituVingiSana
#23 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 4:46:00 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,346
Location: Nairobi
@Mugunda is correct in that "depreciation" is an accounting concept BUT it is rooted in reality too.
Some buildings. depending on their nature, may last for centuries though they may require increasing maintenance or major renovation.

The depreciation may be "even" in accounting but as we know the repairs/replacement/renovations are anything but regular and equal.

As for rental yields, they have generally been sub-par, often below inflation and/or T-Bond returns, in Kenya. The capital appreciation was fueled by the "herd mentality" and "pyramid" nature of investment. Those returns (exceeding inflation or T-Bond yields) are unlikely to be seen in the near future unless economic potential increases.

Let's use Centum as an example.

Unless the Vipingo Area sees an influx of INDUSTRIAL and COMMERCIAL users, the land values will stagnate. The influx can only be driven by ECONOMIC factors which require decent fiscal management of the economy and good infrastructure to open up the area. Both factors are unlikely to happen in the near future.

Two Rivers: The mall is as good as it gets for now but it could get worse. For Centum, it is a loss leader. The "extra" land is up for sale but the demand is low. Do not expect any significant positive cashflows.

Firms which have debt and have "land" as their primary business are going to face a very tough time.

I don't know much about HAFR but I like Centum [discussing the business not the share price] since it has positive cashflow businesses (NBL, Almasi, etc) that can sustain the operations through the lean years.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
MugundaMan
#24 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 4:59:13 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,212
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
VituVingiSana wrote:
@Mugunda is correct in that "depreciation" is an accounting concept BUT it is rooted in reality too.
Some buildings. depending on their nature, may last for centuries though they may require increasing maintenance or major renovation.

The depreciation may be "even" in accounting but as we know the repairs/replacement/renovations are anything but regular and equal.

As for rental yields, they have generally been sub-par, often below inflation and/or T-Bond returns, in Kenya. The capital appreciation was fueled by the "herd mentality" and "pyramid" nature of investment. Those returns (exceeding inflation or T-Bond yields) are unlikely to be seen in the near future unless economic potential increases.

Let's use Centum as an example.

Unless the Vipingo Area sees an influx of INDUSTRIAL and COMMERCIAL users, the land values will stagnate. The influx can only be driven by ECONOMIC factors which require decent fiscal management of the economy and good infrastructure to open up the area. Both factors are unlikely to happen in the near future.

Two Rivers: The mall is as good as it gets for now but it could get worse. For Centum, it is a loss leader. The "extra" land is up for sale but the demand is low. Do not expect any significant positive cashflows.

Firms which have debt and have "land" as their primary business are going to face a very tough time.

I don't know much about HAFR but I like Centum [discussing the business not the share price] since it has positive cashflow businesses (NBL, Almasi, etc) that can sustain the operations through the lean years.


VVS,

-The economy has averaged out at approx a red hot 5% p.a. GDP growth rate for the past 16 years or so
-The Kenyan middle class has grown at an exponential pace in sync with that growth rate, and this middle class is fueling domestic demand at a blistering pace.
-The housing deficit in Kenya has not been bridged since independence

Jameni what more do you want?
Where is the "herd mentality" there? It is plain and simple supply and demand driving capital appreciation.

I am still challenging all of you guys to repeal the law of supply and demand before I take such statements above seriously. So far besides anecdotal opinions, no one has made a convincing argument to repeal said law.
tony stark
#25 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 5:12:13 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
MugundaMan wrote:
Kenyans are very funny!

Does anyone remember Lukorito Jones (what a name by the way) and his doomsday articles many years ago about the "imminent" collapse of the R.E sector in Kenya.
I will say it again for the umpteenth time.

WAKE ME UP WHEN SOMEONE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD MANAGES TO REPEAL THE LAW OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

Stalin tried in Russia, slaughtering 10 million people there trying to prove it and failed miserably.
The Chinese tried it until 1978 until the genius Deng Xiao Ping got religion fast and baptised the capitalism he legalised as a "unique brand of socialism with special characteristics" Laughing out loudly. The Chinese have been as capitalistic as the rest of us ever since!

When supply exceeds the whopping housing deficit in Kenya, come and tap me from my comfy bed where I will be slumbering and snoring away over this non-topic.

A slightly empty mall or apartment somewhere tells us nothing. The housing sector is not monolithic, and a temporary oversuppply in high end mall or office space in one or two buildings does not mean the entire sector is under collapse! Unless of course you are a big fan of the reasoning of Lukorito Jones. Laughing out loudly


I agree with you 100%

I also think the real estate market is about to get hotter with the low housing development scheme. I think it will have a few benefits
1. Introducing and removing stigma of alternative building strategies like pre built panels etc. This will have a knock on effect on the other levels because and probably bring down the cost of the middle and upper brackets.
2. The low income houses create a new middle class. A senior nurse in Kenya earns 50-70K p.m. How is she to afford a house even with a combined income. This scheme will increase the middle class by providing an asset through which this class can increase their revenue.
3. Opening up the counties as a viable investment destination.

I think this market is about to get hotter and the cold spot in the upper bracket wont detract the overall market. Looking forward to seeing what will be done through the low cost housing.
MugundaMan
#26 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 5:17:33 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,212
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
tony stark wrote:
MugundaMan wrote:
Kenyans are very funny!

Does anyone remember Lukorito Jones (what a name by the way) and his doomsday articles many years ago about the "imminent" collapse of the R.E sector in Kenya.
I will say it again for the umpteenth time.

WAKE ME UP WHEN SOMEONE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD MANAGES TO REPEAL THE LAW OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

Stalin tried in Russia, slaughtering 10 million people there trying to prove it and failed miserably.
The Chinese tried it until 1978 until the genius Deng Xiao Ping got religion fast and baptised the capitalism he legalised as a "unique brand of socialism with special characteristics" Laughing out loudly. The Chinese have been as capitalistic as the rest of us ever since!

When supply exceeds the whopping housing deficit in Kenya, come and tap me from my comfy bed where I will be slumbering and snoring away over this non-topic.

A slightly empty mall or apartment somewhere tells us nothing. The housing sector is not monolithic, and a temporary oversuppply in high end mall or office space in one or two buildings does not mean the entire sector is under collapse! Unless of course you are a big fan of the reasoning of Lukorito Jones. Laughing out loudly


I agree with you 100%

I also think the real estate market is about to get hotter with the low housing development scheme. I think it will have a few benefits
1. Introducing and removing stigma of alternative building strategies like pre built panels etc. This will have a knock on effect on the other levels because and probably bring down the cost of the middle and upper brackets.
2. The low income houses create a new middle class. A senior nurse in Kenya earns 50-70K p.m. How is she to afford a house even with a combined income. This scheme will increase the middle class by providing an asset through which this class can increase their revenue.
3. Opening up the counties as a viable investment destination.

I think this market is about to get hotter and the cold spot in the upper bracket wont detract the overall market. Looking forward to seeing what will be done through the low cost housing.


Amen!
VituVingiSana
#27 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 5:20:40 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,346
Location: Nairobi
@mugundaman

The law of demand and supply is alive and kicking.

We came off a "lost decade" under moi and so from 2002 onwards so we had the benefit of starting off from a low base.

Growth Rate: 5% is not "red-hot" given some countries like India and China (if you believe the official stats) had 7-10% growth for more than a decade. Some areas will continue to see an increase in prices if access (eg roads) make in-roads.

Middle Class: It will continue growing but 'affordability' of real estate remains key. People benefit from living closer to where they work and the "affordable" plots further out may have a commuting cost.

On an all-cash personal/individual portfolio, one can get 11% (after tax) on IFBs.
In some "middle-class) parts of Nairobi, the gross rental yields are 6% (pre-tax), then discount maintenance costs, etc. Plus the hassle of owning real estate - dealing with tenants, etc.
[Rents usually increase but IFB yields will not]

Will the property increase in value by 5% annually to match the IFBs?

There are many other factors that come in play. This is a not a comprehensive analysis.

If one is buying a plot, without building a rentable structure, then the capital appreciation required is at least 11%.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
VituVingiSana
#28 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 5:33:07 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,346
Location: Nairobi
Subsidies distort the market.

So @tonystark, if GoK is going to subsidize the "low-cost housing" then one can't beat GoK. It was like the imported maize.

New tech will benefit new housing and those with land (or an old building that can be torn down) will benefit.

I "own" real estate indirectly through some NSE investments but most are not in the primary business of real estate.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
tony stark
#29 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 5:54:51 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
VituVingiSana wrote:
Subsidies distort the market.

So @tonystark, if GoK is going to subsidize the "low-cost housing" then one can't beat GoK. It was like the imported maize.

New tech will benefit new housing and those with land (or an old building that can be torn down) will benefit.

I "own" real estate indirectly through some NSE investments but most are not in the primary business of real estate.


I agree that GoK playing in the market distorts the market but GoK can not supply enough even with the 3% tax. What GoK is doing si helping to reduce the inequality because there is a group of people who are certainly being ignored by th protery developer.
My point is is that without GoK intervention there is a huge group of people who are being left out from the market because developers are looking for a 30-40% return on investment!
Also by intervening GoK creates a "new" middle class bu enabling a group of people to obtain an appreciating asset cheaply and also provides the "new" middle with an asset to enable borrowing of the new asset. This also has an effect on the general economy.
MugundaMan
#30 Posted : Monday, October 15, 2018 7:05:32 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/8/2018
Posts: 2,212
Location: DC (Dustbowl County)
VituVingiSana wrote:
@mugundaman

The law of demand and supply is alive and kicking.


Amen!

Quote:
We came off a "lost decade" under moi and so from 2002 onwards so we had the benefit of starting off from a low base.Growth Rate: 5% is not "red-hot" given some countries like India and China (if you believe the official stats) had 7-10% growth for more than a decade. Some areas will continue to see an increase in prices if access (eg roads) make in-roads.

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
Danganya wengine! Africa's GDP growth rates have been second only to India, China and one or two other Asian economic giants the past decade and a half. Not even Europe and North America comes close. And East Africa is the lynchpin of this growth (see article below) To discount this is to live in a fantasy land.
http://www.theeastafrica...860-112q638z/index.html


Quote:
Middle Class: It will continue growing but 'affordability' of real estate remains key. People benefit from living closer to where they work and the "affordable" plots further out may have a commuting cost.


But what has this got to do with anything? Booming middle class is buying property both near and far from where they work, high cost or low cost. If it wasn't affordable they would not be buying!

Quote:
On an all-cash personal/individual portfolio, one can get 11% (after tax) on IFBs.
In some "middle-class) parts of Nairobi, the gross rental yields are 6% (pre-tax)
, then discount maintenance costs, etc. Plus the hassle of owning real estate - dealing with tenants, etc.
[Rents usually increase but IFB yields will not]


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
But who told you rental yields are where the money is for real estate? Laughing out loudly


Quote:
Will the property increase in value by 5% annually to match the IFBs?


Of course! I bought one plot in January this year and have already made an easy 22% return in cap gains if I were to sell today. And the year is not even over yet. I have made as much as 2000% total return on plots bought a decade or more ago. And this is TYPICAL in the R.E. Industry in this here our lovely Kiinya. And this is BEFORE rental yields added on top! 11% tax free IFB are crumbs baba Laughing out loudly. Many many years ago I used to be a corporate drone in the finance industry who used to think the same way you do..that these 11%'s are big gains so I don't blame you-oo.

Quote:
There are many other factors that come in play. This is a not a comprehensive analysis.

If one is buying a plot, without building a rentable structure, then the capital appreciation required is at least 11%.[


Which an average plot bila structure EASILY beats per annum. As I told you bro, 11% is crumbs in the R.E. Industry. Someone who buys one acre and subdivides into 7 parcels of 1/8ths can make a 200%+ return NET quite easily without breaking a sweat in a few MONTHS let alone a year. This is not rocket science or some theory in a book my broda this is FACT.
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