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Baba defends Kanyari & 310
tycho
#21 Posted : Wednesday, January 13, 2016 10:14:22 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
How the government's move translates to votes is the issue here. I kinda like it especially if my supposition that it's a decoy is true!

Like, the church is now interested in voting as a bloc. Now some few more moves (incentives to the leaders perhaps) and the ground is ready for 'advanced procedures'.

Meanwhile Wanjiku should be kept busy with apologetics...

masukuma
#22 Posted : Wednesday, January 13, 2016 10:25:05 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
masukuma wrote:
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
masukuma wrote:
hardwood wrote:
He has said worshipers are free to give to the pastor, and that govt should keep off matters religion.

www.the-star.co.ke/news/...ys-review-order_c1275461

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly He is right!!

do you think the state should have let that case where a guy slaughtered his family in the name of religion alone.

he committed murder (regardless of motivation).... the separation of state and religion is two sided! The guy murders a whole family could have other motivations such as a movie - would you ban a movie? The line that is drawn is that gava should not tell you what to believe.... it's none of it's business. The state exists for the people and not the people for the state. same with Marriage - it's not government's business to affix itself in personal matters! The state cannot have oversight on what I believe in! Individual rights of belief are inalienable... ati pastors need to have some theological training? what if my religion believes that the 'upako' is hereditary?

what if the guy believed his religion directed him to murder his family.

it is fine for them to believe that.... ACTING IN IT would infinge on his families individual rights....so the basic principal is 'your rights end where mine begin'. It's not even fictitious coz We have a bunch of people that believe the murder going on in Palestine is God's will. So imagine if someone does like that guy who killed his daugher for God in the bible? Or even what if God told him to sacrifice his son... (any similarities with characters you know?)...and he does not show up?
@muchr : why are quoting scripture.... kanyari may quote scripture or his dream. Can the holy spirit take a seat and repudiate what he told Kanyari?
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Mukiri
#23 Posted : Wednesday, January 13, 2016 11:00:49 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
Very risky move. Was tried and failed, in the abortion debacle during refurandum. It came as a sad surprise that 'we' had nothing to flex. Or was it rigged?

Proverbs 19:21
murchr
#24 Posted : Wednesday, January 13, 2016 11:24:12 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
masukuma wrote:
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
masukuma wrote:
sitaki.kujulikana wrote:
masukuma wrote:
hardwood wrote:
He has said worshipers are free to give to the pastor, and that govt should keep off matters religion.

www.the-star.co.ke/news/...ys-review-order_c1275461

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly He is right!!

do you think the state should have let that case where a guy slaughtered his family in the name of religion alone.

he committed murder (regardless of motivation).... the separation of state and religion is two sided! The guy murders a whole family could have other motivations such as a movie - would you ban a movie? The line that is drawn is that gava should not tell you what to believe.... it's none of it's business. The state exists for the people and not the people for the state. same with Marriage - it's not government's business to affix itself in personal matters! The state cannot have oversight on what I believe in! Individual rights of belief are inalienable... ati pastors need to have some theological training? what if my religion believes that the 'upako' is hereditary?

what if the guy believed his religion directed him to murder his family.

it is fine for them to believe that.... ACTING IN IT would infinge on his families individual rights....so the basic principal is 'your rights end where mine begin'. It's not even fictitious coz We have a bunch of people that believe the murder going on in Palestine is God's will. So imagine if someone does like that guy who killed his daugher for God in the bible? Or even what if God told him to sacrifice his son... (any similarities with characters you know?)...and he does not show up?
@muchr : why are quoting scripture.... kanyari may quote scripture or his dream. Can the holy spirit take a seat and repudiate what he told Kanyari?


The law of the land supersedes that of Kanyari. Even the good book advocates for that. Why does the govt prosecute the Kavonokya sect leaders and parents for not participating in immunization or for refusing to take people to hospital if they have no mandate?

"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Liv
#25 Posted : Wednesday, January 13, 2016 11:42:44 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
I support the church in this matter.

My views:

Kenya is a free market. Everyone is free to innovate make create goods and services and sell them in Kenya as long as they are not illegal.

Has it occurred to people that preachers are also selling their services via TV? As long as whatever they are selling is not illegal why should the government regulate it? If someone is selling a healing service that does not work, there are laws to deal with that. But regulating how the preachers will collect the offerings, or how they will recruit their customers is uncalled for and is against a free market principles.

masukuma
#26 Posted : Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:16:56 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:

The law of the land supersedes that of Kanyari. Even the good book advocates for that. Why does the govt prosecute the Kavonokya sect leaders and parents for not participating in immunization or for refusing to take people to hospital if they have no mandate?


Immunization is a PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE!! i.e. it affects me!! The reason we have Polio around is because some people refused to/couldnt get immunized.
the law of the land supercedes that of kanyari but our debate is at what point should it stop!! China has a law of the land that bans all religions. it's not a CAN IT BE DONE? question, it's a SHOULD IT BE DONE? the guiding principle is this... We decided to put God in our constitution and thus we cannot ban religion. As we said each religion considers the other fake or at least illegitimate. Remember this video?

Heck even akina Hamburgler are also in the mix... they consider EVERY RELIGION FAKE and every religion considers them 'lost' or 'evil'. What should happen? well... the laws of the land should legislate rights and extent of those rights... my freedom to associate should only be limited when it tramples on yours. If someone starts a church in an estate and starts singing when my kids are asleep... block him! let him go worship else where.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
murchr
#27 Posted : Thursday, January 14, 2016 12:32:39 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:

The law of the land supersedes that of Kanyari. Even the good book advocates for that. Why does the govt prosecute the Kavonokya sect leaders and parents for not participating in immunization or for refusing to take people to hospital if they have no mandate?


Immunization is a PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE!! i.e. it affects me!! The reason we have Polio around is because some people refused to/couldnt get immunized.
the law of the land supercedes that of kanyari but our debate is at what point should it stop!! China has a law of the land that bans all religions. it's not a CAN IT BE DONE? question, it's a SHOULD IT BE DONE? the guiding principle is this... We decided to put God in our constitution and thus we cannot ban religion. As we said each religion considers the other fake or at least illegitimate. Remember this video?

Heck even akina Hamburgler are also in the mix... they consider EVERY RELIGION FAKE and every religion considers them 'lost' or 'evil'. What should happen? well... the laws of the land should legislate rights and extent of those rights... my freedom to associate should only be limited when it tramples on yours. If someone starts a church in an estate and starts singing when my kids are asleep... block him! let him go worship else where.


Am not against them selling their churches but there's a line that has to be drawn when it gets to scheming and extorting the public and it is the job of the govt to protect its citizens from all sorts of extortion be it from pyramid schemes or prosperity gospel churches. The law can not apply differently to a set people
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
alma1
#28 Posted : Thursday, January 14, 2016 6:08:47 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/19/2015
Posts: 2,871
Location: hapo
I fail to understand the argument.

The separation between Church and State cannot be debated. If you want gov't to interfere with church, please move to ISIS territory.

I'm speaking as someone who doesn't attend church as many times as most people.

If someone wants to believe that Kanyari is the savior, that's he's religion and he should be let be. You can complain about it and make posts on wazua about it if you wish, but that's his personal choice. As long as it doesn't infringe on my rights, let them be.

Now for this gov't of all gov'ts to talk about corruption in a church is the height of all hypocrisy.

Now they want to have another avenue to tax people. Taxing people because of their religions.

Unlike other laws such as blogging laws, which apparently now include retweeting, this one I'm afraid shall go nowhere.

Madness I tell you, total madness.

Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?

Anti_Burglar
#29 Posted : Thursday, January 14, 2016 8:13:40 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
masukuma wrote:
murchr wrote:

The law of the land supersedes that of Kanyari. Even the good book advocates for that. Why does the govt prosecute the Kavonokya sect leaders and parents for not participating in immunization or for refusing to take people to hospital if they have no mandate?


Immunization is a PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE!! i.e. it affects me!! The reason we have Polio around is because some people refused to/couldnt get immunized.
the law of the land supercedes that of kanyari but our debate is at what point should it stop!! China has a law of the land that bans all religions. it's not a CAN IT BE DONE? question, it's a SHOULD IT BE DONE? the guiding principle is this... We decided to put God in our constitution and thus we cannot ban religion. As we said each religion considers the other fake or at least illegitimate. Remember this video?

Heck even akina Hamburgler are also in the mix... they consider EVERY RELIGION FAKE and every religion considers them 'lost' or 'evil'. What should happen? well... the laws of the land should legislate rights and extent of those rights... my freedom to associate should only be limited when it tramples on yours. If someone starts a church in an estate and starts singing when my kids are asleep... block him! let him go worship else where.


Don't be dramatic! Wazua is not the schools drama festivals. Putting up videos does not make it Hollywoood either.

You are not susceptible to polio. And if your kin have been immunized then polio will not affect them. So it does not affect you except to the extent you can jeer at the 'ignorant' people.
Anti_Burglar
#30 Posted : Thursday, January 14, 2016 8:24:19 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/11/2015
Posts: 1,024
alma1 wrote:
I fail to understand the argument.

The separation between Church and State cannot be debated. If you want gov't to interfere with church, please move to ISIS territory.

I'm speaking as someone who doesn't attend church as many times as most people.

If someone wants to believe that Kanyari is the savior, that's he's religion and he should be let be. You can complain about it and make posts on wazua about it if you wish, but that's his personal choice. As long as it doesn't infringe on my rights, let them be.

Now for this gov't of all gov'ts to talk about corruption in a church is the height of all hypocrisy.

Now they want to have another avenue to tax people. Taxing people because of their religions.

Unlike other laws such as blogging laws, which apparently now include retweeting, this one I'm afraid shall go nowhere.






Why? Why do you want Pope who has told us that the authentic spirit of religion cannot be confined to personal space or conscience to go to ISIS territory? Is he an ISIS sympathizer?


Pope Francis: religion should not be confined to 'personal conscience'

Religion must be and should be and will be regulated. Watch this space!
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