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ICC HE Uhuru Kenyatta PORK - 12th November
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,330 Location: Masada
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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All these ICC judges need to do is rule in favour of UK's application which is sensible and kill this unnecessary speculation. It requires he appears physically only at the key stages which are outlined in the application. He has cooperated all along.
Precedent is very very clear. NO SEATING HEAD OF STATE HAS EVER BEEN HURLED TO A COURT, A FOREIGN ONE EVEN ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. He has a responsibility to Kenyans first. He has been cooperative and the application is sensible.
ICC tuheshimiane.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,330 Location: Masada
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KulaRaha wrote:McReggae wrote:McReggae wrote:Magigi wrote:McReggae wrote:Lakini shida iko waphi....nilisema hapa kitambo Johnny Walker haendi hague.....I still believe so!!! I think he will go...but when he comes home for the mid-term break, he will go back... Seeing Wailer there depressed him...what about himself on the dock???? Making preparations not to appear!!!! If he doesn't appear, what happens? Al Bashir.Portfolio: Sold You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 10/5/2013 Posts: 16
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forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. Mbona ulifingua account ingine? You should have just posted with your old one.I am about to out you. I am happy
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 10/5/2013 Posts: 16
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Amores wrote:zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. Mbona ulifingua account ingine? You should have just posted with your old one. I am about to out you. I don't take naughty pictures and you aren't Sonko. I'd hope you had a bigger one than his though, if I ever gave you reason to take naughty pictures with me.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. You dint ask him to be president but the majority of Kenyans did, there was a choice of 8 remember. The issue is simple, many are feeling short-changed, many thought the trials will be free and fair and in that i mean, open for all to see. The cases will go either way, but many will not accept the verdict because of the secrecy of the court. If anything, the Kenyan law doesn't allow for a sitting president to be tried... go read that katiba that was passed by a majority of Kenyans. As for Uhuru being your mother...kweli hormones ziko on high note, when did UK become a woman?..leave mothers out of discussions on wazua..hio peleka mtaani on those gossip corridors. "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 10/5/2013 Posts: 16
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ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office. I'll agree with you when you show me the part of the law that says a president CAN'T be tried at the Hague or in Kenya. When you do, I'll keep quiet and go to the finance section.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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zenazainabu wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office. I'll agree with you when you show me the part of the law that says a president CAN'T be tried at the Hague or in Kenya. When you do, I'll keep quiet and go to the finance section. It's called Precedent. It applies to law you know. Official Immunity is exemption from a penalty or burden that the law generally places upon other citizens. Previous courts e.g. US have emphasized the singular importance of the duties of the president, and noted that the diversion of the president's energies over concern for lawsuits "would raise unique risks to the effective functioning of government." They also observed that the president, in view of the visibility of the office, would be an easy target for lawsuits. The ensuing personal vulnerability and distraction would prove harmful to the nation. President Uhuru Kenyatta is already duly elected as head of state. Deal. It is his considered legal opinion that seating in lengthy court appearances would impede effective functioning of government. All he legally asks is - not that the trial be stopped but - that in line with precedent that recognizes the effects of litigation on state duties and realities of the ongoing case, his physical involvement is as far as it only required in person. I rest my case.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/21/2006 Posts: 1,590
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We Kenyans are incredible. We gave him our votes knowing kimwana had a date in court. Kai statehouse kuri kwa nyukwa? Let the boy skype from Netherlands. Kenya is not going to collapse, hustler will be here Sehemu ndio nyumba
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 10/5/2013 Posts: 16
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ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office. I'll agree with you when you show me the part of the law that says a president CAN'T be tried at the Hague or in Kenya. When you do, I'll keep quiet and go to the finance section. It's called Precedent. It applies to law you know. Official Immunity is exemption from a penalty or burden that the law generally places upon other citizens. Previous courts e.g. US have emphasized the singular importance of the duties of the president, and noted that the diversion of the president's energies over concern for lawsuits "would raise unique risks to the effective functioning of government." They also observed that the president, in view of the visibility of the office, would be an easy target for lawsuits. The ensuing personal vulnerability and distraction would prove harmful to the nation. President Uhuru Kenyatta is already duly elected as head of state. Deal. It is his considered legal opinion that seating in lengthy court appearances would impede effective functioning of government. All he legally asks is - not that the trial be stopped but - that in line with precedent and realities of the ongoing case, his physical involvement is as far as it only required in person. Period. I can assure you, knowing Lawyer Khan, that would have been his first argument. He hasn't used it and infact he keeps on saying that the actions of some in Kenya are NOT his client's actions. Never underestimate the power of that section of the constitution about impeachment. If a president can be impeached, he can be jailed. Quote:(1) A member of the National Assembly, supported by at least a third of all the members, may move a motion for the impeachment of the President— (a) on the ground of a gross violation of a provision of this Constitution or of any other law; (b) where there are serious reasons for believing that the President has committed a crime under national or international law; or (c) for gross misconduct. So the question is not if he can its "if there's a will" Obviously on this forum, the question of will doesn't arise as it doesn't exist. But in the court that WE agreed to go to, the question of will isn't a question but a certainty. So its not a legal issue as you are trying to put it but a political issue. So lets be honest with our arguments. Let's just say, I don't want the president to go to the Hague because I like him. But trying to use the law in this case, you will fail every time. I believe that Githu Muigai would not have lost a single chance to use the law if the opportunity was given to him. That's it from these sides of the world. I guess Kenyan politics is disgusting so I'll keep away from it.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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ecstacy wrote:All these ICC judges need to do is rule in favour of UK's application which is sensible and kill this unnecessary speculation. It requires he appears physically only at the key stages which are outlined in the application. He has cooperated all along.
Precedent is very very clear. NO SEATING HEAD OF STATE HAS EVER BEEN HURLED TO A COURT, A FOREIGN ONE EVEN ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. He has a responsibility to Kenyans first. He has been cooperative and the application is sensible.
ICC tuheshimiane.
Will the court be fair if it does that???why are you trying to dictate what the court does??? possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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zenazainabu wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office. I'll agree with you when you show me the part of the law that says a president CAN'T be tried at the Hague or in Kenya. When you do, I'll keep quiet and go to the finance section. It's called Precedent. It applies to law you know. Official Immunity is exemption from a penalty or burden that the law generally places upon other citizens. Previous courts e.g. US have emphasized the singular importance of the duties of the president, and noted that the diversion of the president's energies over concern for lawsuits "would raise unique risks to the effective functioning of government." They also observed that the president, in view of the visibility of the office, would be an easy target for lawsuits. The ensuing personal vulnerability and distraction would prove harmful to the nation. President Uhuru Kenyatta is already duly elected as head of state. Deal. It is his considered legal opinion that seating in lengthy court appearances would impede effective functioning of government. All he legally asks is - not that the trial be stopped but - that in line with precedent and realities of the ongoing case, his physical involvement is as far as it only required in person. Period. I can assure you, knowing Lawyer Khan, that would have been his first argument. He hasn't used it and infact he keeps on saying that the actions of some in Kenya are NOT his client's actions. Never underestimate the power of that section of the constitution about impeachment. If a president can be impeached, he can be jailed. Quote:(1) A member of the National Assembly, supported by at least a third of all the members, may move a motion for the impeachment of the President— (a) on the ground of a gross violation of a provision of this Constitution or of any other law; (b) where there are serious reasons for believing that the President has committed a crime under national or international law; or (c) for gross misconduct. So the question is not if he can its "if there's a will" Obviously on this forum, the question of will doesn't arise as it doesn't exist. But in the court that WE agreed to go to, the question of will isn't a question but a certainty. So its not a legal issue as you are trying to put it but a political issue. So lets be honest with our arguments. Let's just say, I don't want the president to go to the Hague because I like him. But trying to use the law in this case, you will fail every time. I believe that Githu Muigai would not have lost a single chance to use the law if the opportunity was given to him. That's it from these sides of the world. I guess Kenyan politics is disgusting so I'll keep away from it. With all due respect, please get your facts right from the defense line of argument to lawyers involved. For the defense line adopted, following is verbatim submission by Steven Kay (Uhuru Kenyatta's lawyer) on this fresh request to allow him to skip his trial sessions except for the opening, closing and delivery of judgment so as to enable him carry out his state duties: "President Kenyatta is satisfied that he will be able to adequately manage his defence by delegating responsibility to his legal team who are in receipt of full instructions..
The people of Kenya were fully informed about the ICC proceedings when they elected President Kenyatta to lead the nation, and, having done so, they have a legitimate expectation that their country’s democracy should be respected by the wider international community.
President Kenyatta is fully aware that he will be able to follow the proceedings through Transcend and access live transcripts in Kenya through his legal team without being physically present in court
The Defence endorses the position taken in the Joint Amicus Curiae Submissions that the “mechanistic requirement of continuous presence at the seat of the Court – in the case of an elected head of state or deputy head of state who cooperates with the Court and who appears on a summons – would deprive the electorate of the best government they are entitled to"The above ties with my earlier post and comments issued by the Kenyan Foreign Affairs Ministry. It's plain and legally sensible.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office. I'll agree with you when you show me the part of the law that says a president CAN'T be tried at the Hague or in Kenya. When you do, I'll keep quiet and go to the finance section. It's called Precedent. It applies to law you know. Official Immunity is exemption from a penalty or burden that the law generally places upon other citizens. Previous courts e.g. US have emphasized the singular importance of the duties of the president, and noted that the diversion of the president's energies over concern for lawsuits "would raise unique risks to the effective functioning of government." They also observed that the president, in view of the visibility of the office, would be an easy target for lawsuits. The ensuing personal vulnerability and distraction would prove harmful to the nation. President Uhuru Kenyatta is already duly elected as head of state. Deal. It is his considered legal opinion that seating in lengthy court appearances would impede effective functioning of government. All he legally asks is - not that the trial be stopped but - that in line with precedent that recognizes the effects of litigation on state duties and realities of the ongoing case, his physical involvement is as far as it only required in person. I rest my case. You need to refresh yourself with the law emphasis on recent precedent where Kibaki was sued and the international crimes act viz immunity and whether the same applies to crimes against humanity such as those that are dealt by the ICC. Its simpler to say the dude ain't going to ICC coz things are thick and not plead diplomatic and/or presidential immunity....which for the record is only for crimes under our penal code. Besides he knew about the cases prior to his presidency of which he loudly stated for all and sundry that the cases would have no bearing on his managing the country.He is estopped from raising what he is now raising. possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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maka wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office. I'll agree with you when you show me the part of the law that says a president CAN'T be tried at the Hague or in Kenya. When you do, I'll keep quiet and go to the finance section. It's called Precedent. It applies to law you know. Official Immunity is exemption from a penalty or burden that the law generally places upon other citizens. Previous courts e.g. US have emphasized the singular importance of the duties of the president, and noted that the diversion of the president's energies over concern for lawsuits "would raise unique risks to the effective functioning of government." They also observed that the president, in view of the visibility of the office, would be an easy target for lawsuits. The ensuing personal vulnerability and distraction would prove harmful to the nation. President Uhuru Kenyatta is already duly elected as head of state. Deal. It is his considered legal opinion that seating in lengthy court appearances would impede effective functioning of government. All he legally asks is - not that the trial be stopped but - that in line with precedent that recognizes the effects of litigation on state duties and realities of the ongoing case, his physical involvement is as far as it only required in person. I rest my case. You need to refresh yourself with the law emphasis on recent precedent where Kibaki was sued and the international crimes act viz immunity and whether the same applies to crimes against humanity such as those that are dealt by the ICC. Its simpler to say the dude ain't going to ICC coz things are thick and not plead diplomatic and/or presidential immunity....which for the record is only for crimes under our penal code. Besides he knew about the cases prior to his presidency of which he loudly stated for all and sundry that the cases would have no bearing on his managing the country.He is estopped from raising what he is now raising. Sticking to law, the mechanistic requirement of continuous presence at the seat of the Court – in the case of an elected head of state who cooperates with the Court and who appears on a summons – would deprive the Kenyan electorate of the best government they are entitled to without necessary cause, an effect outrightly undesired by precedential law.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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ecstacy wrote:maka wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:ecstacy wrote:zenazainabu wrote:forgive my hormones but we agreed to take people there, we weren't told to go there. they agreed they would go. They agreed they would be there every day, they even said they aren't afraid. They even said they could rule with skype.
So what changed?
Just asking.Uhuru is not my mother and even my mother has to go to court when required. I did not ask him to be president, he decided that he was good enough to be president even when he was in the Hague. Then the majority agreed that it was possible.
Double standards?
And Al Bashir is not something that I want. But Kenya ni jina, nchi ina wenyewe. This is law not politics. The letter matters. Was Uhuru Kenyatta President of the Republic of Kenya then? This is a new Kenya where the Constitution limits the terms one President can serve Kenya. Apende asipende. You can always have the joy of watching him suffer at the dock when he leaves office. I'll agree with you when you show me the part of the law that says a president CAN'T be tried at the Hague or in Kenya. When you do, I'll keep quiet and go to the finance section. It's called Precedent. It applies to law you know. Official Immunity is exemption from a penalty or burden that the law generally places upon other citizens. Previous courts e.g. US have emphasized the singular importance of the duties of the president, and noted that the diversion of the president's energies over concern for lawsuits "would raise unique risks to the effective functioning of government." They also observed that the president, in view of the visibility of the office, would be an easy target for lawsuits. The ensuing personal vulnerability and distraction would prove harmful to the nation. President Uhuru Kenyatta is already duly elected as head of state. Deal. It is his considered legal opinion that seating in lengthy court appearances would impede effective functioning of government. All he legally asks is - not that the trial be stopped but - that in line with precedent that recognizes the effects of litigation on state duties and realities of the ongoing case, his physical involvement is as far as it only required in person. I rest my case. You need to refresh yourself with the law emphasis on recent precedent where Kibaki was sued and the international crimes act viz immunity and whether the same applies to crimes against humanity such as those that are dealt by the ICC. Its simpler to say the dude ain't going to ICC coz things are thick and not plead diplomatic and/or presidential immunity....which for the record is only for crimes under our penal code. Besides he knew about the cases prior to his presidency of which he loudly stated for all and sundry that the cases would have no bearing on his managing the country.He is estopped from raising what he is now raising. Sticking to law, the mechanistic requirement of continuous presence at the seat of the Court – in the case of an elected head of state who cooperates with the Court and who appears on a summons – would deprive the Kenyan electorate of the best government they are entitled to without necessary cause, an effect outrightly undesired by precedential law. Take time and read the Rome Statute and then Art 2 if you havent,by signing the Statute we bound ourselves to the dicta of legislation contained in the Statute and that includes Equal Application of Laws. As it is the Court has been overly kind to WSR. The concept of EAL presupposes that all accused must be treated in the same manner. The president is an accused before the court... possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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@ecstacy, it's reallg simple: If the law was as you say he would not have asked the ICC to ALLOW him attend only certain sessions, angetumia tu hio law!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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"Legally I see no advantage for him (President Uhuru Kenyatta) to submit himself to the court. The bright red thread of modern international criminal law is politics. Politically this is a lose-lose situation, for both the ICC and the Kenyans." - Professor David M. Crane, Syracuse University College of Law.This and more, ref - http://bigstory.ap.org/a...likely-attend-intl-court
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ICC HE Uhuru Kenyatta PORK - 12th November
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