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KQ orderd to reinstate sacked workers!!!
Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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sparkly wrote:maka wrote:sparkly wrote:McReggae wrote:The industrial court has ordered KQ to reinstate the over 400 sacked workers by tommorrow!!! What is this? A tribunal cannot force parties into an employer/ employee relationship. KQ needs to move to the High Court pronto. ...Place a wager,the high court will still uphold the ruling this guys were given a legal opinion by some law firm they chose to ignore the whole thing and did it how they deemed fit according to them,the only solution....swallow your pride and do it as the court has directed...who should be blamed?A statement I came across 'ignorance is not, and never will be, a defence – CEOs will be judged not on what they know, but on what they should have known' @Maka there is a serious error of law here. It is a well accepted principle under the common law that an employer/ employee relationship cannot be compelled, otherwise we will have something akin to sanctioned slavery. The most that a court can order is that employees be dismissed proceduraly and they be paid their dues in full. ...@sparkly Art.162 (2) of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 forms the platform upon which the Industrial Court derives its mandate. The Industrial Court has exclusive original and appellate jurisdiction to hear labour and employment matters.With the power donated to it under this provison and also taking into account the jurisdiction conferred by Section 12 of Act 20 of 2011 i.e.The Industrial Court Act and in particular Section 12 (3) (vii) the Industrial court has power to reinstate an employee within 3 years of dismissal subject to such conditions as it may impose.This is the provison that Judge Riika rightly used to reinstate the KQ staff. The argument that an employer cant be compelled to take up an employee is thus fallacious and is not backed by law...in addition to that common law cannot supersede substantive procedural law. possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/2/2011 Posts: 4,818 Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
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NAIKUNI MUST GO http://www.nation.co.ke/...2/-/10u53bp/-/index.html Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/30/2008 Posts: 8
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Two comments from me for those who think that this ruling is even executable: 1. Has the court also given the staff the flight schedules they are on to make it a reality. In my opinion this staff will never see the inside of a plane as staff again... deal with it. 2. For all contracts, they have an exit clause (for your information employment is a contract unless the KQ staff con confirm otherwise) and if this is breached then all one is entitled to is the exit payments and damages not forceful reinstatement....lol...kweli we have quaks in the Industrial court
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/17/2009 Posts: 3,583 Location: Kenya
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Swavvy wrote:Two comments from me for those who think that this ruling is even executable: 1. Has the court also given the staff the flight schedules they are on to make it a reality. In my opinion this staff will never see the inside of a plane as staff again... deal with it. 2. For all contracts, they have an exit clause (for your information employment is a contract unless the KQ staff con confirm otherwise) and if this is breached then all one is entitled to is the exit payments and damages not forceful reinstatement....lol...kweli we have quaks in the Industrial court go to a quiet place and read through your comment several times
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2009 Posts: 8,083 Location: Enk are Nyirobi
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maka wrote:sparkly wrote:maka wrote:sparkly wrote:McReggae wrote:The industrial court has ordered KQ to reinstate the over 400 sacked workers by tommorrow!!! What is this? A tribunal cannot force parties into an employer/ employee relationship. KQ needs to move to the High Court pronto. ...Place a wager,the high court will still uphold the ruling this guys were given a legal opinion by some law firm they chose to ignore the whole thing and did it how they deemed fit according to them,the only solution....swallow your pride and do it as the court has directed...who should be blamed?A statement I came across 'ignorance is not, and never will be, a defence – CEOs will be judged not on what they know, but on what they should have known' @Maka there is a serious error of law here. It is a well accepted principle under the common law that an employer/ employee relationship cannot be compelled, otherwise we will have something akin to sanctioned slavery. The most that a court can order is that employees be dismissed proceduraly and they be paid their dues in full. ...@sparkly Art.162 (2) of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 forms the platform upon which the Industrial Court derives its mandate. The Industrial Court has exclusive original and appellate jurisdiction to hear labour and employment matters.With the power donated to it under this provison and also taking into account the jurisdiction conferred by Section 12 of Act 20 of 2011 i.e.The Industrial Court Act and in particular Section 12 (3) (vii) the Industrial court has power to reinstate an employee within 3 years of dismissal subject to such conditions as it may impose.This is the provison that Judge Riika rightly used to reinstate the KQ staff. The argument that an employer cant be compelled to take up an employee is thus fallacious and is not backed by law...in addition to that common law cannot supersede substantive procedural law. @Maka sawa, i have taken judicial notice of those laws. Where does KQ's right to appeal lie? Am getting out of this flying monkey of a share amp; amp; Life is short. Live passionately.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/22/2010 Posts: 11,522 Location: Nairobi
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sparkly wrote:maka wrote:sparkly wrote:maka wrote:sparkly wrote:McReggae wrote:The industrial court has ordered KQ to reinstate the over 400 sacked workers by tommorrow!!! What is this? A tribunal cannot force parties into an employer/ employee relationship. KQ needs to move to the High Court pronto. ...Place a wager,the high court will still uphold the ruling this guys were given a legal opinion by some law firm they chose to ignore the whole thing and did it how they deemed fit according to them,the only solution....swallow your pride and do it as the court has directed...who should be blamed?A statement I came across 'ignorance is not, and never will be, a defence – CEOs will be judged not on what they know, but on what they should have known' @Maka there is a serious error of law here. It is a well accepted principle under the common law that an employer/ employee relationship cannot be compelled, otherwise we will have something akin to sanctioned slavery. The most that a court can order is that employees be dismissed proceduraly and they be paid their dues in full. ...@sparkly Art.162 (2) of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 forms the platform upon which the Industrial Court derives its mandate. The Industrial Court has exclusive original and appellate jurisdiction to hear labour and employment matters.With the power donated to it under this provison and also taking into account the jurisdiction conferred by Section 12 of Act 20 of 2011 i.e.The Industrial Court Act and in particular Section 12 (3) (vii) the Industrial court has power to reinstate an employee within 3 years of dismissal subject to such conditions as it may impose.This is the provison that Judge Riika rightly used to reinstate the KQ staff. The argument that an employer cant be compelled to take up an employee is thus fallacious and is not backed by law...in addition to that common law cannot supersede substantive procedural law. @Maka sawa, i have taken judicial notice of those laws. Where does KQ's right to appeal lie? Am getting out of this flying monkey of a share amp; amp; ...KQ can obtain a stay of the order under the Appellate Jurisdiction Act CAP 9 Section 3 and rule 5 (2) (b) of the Court of Appeal rules possunt quia posse videntur
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/24/2012 Posts: 331 Location: Vantage point
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There is a probability that the tables will turn when KQ appeals. That judgement by the industrial court seems populist under some kind of political pressure, but lets wait and see.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/2/2011 Posts: 4,818 Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
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Drobos fly wrote:There is a probability that the tables will turn when KQ appeals. That judgement by the industrial court seems populist under some kind of political pressure, but lets wait and see. KQ has already commited itself to accepting the staff already. They have already handed letters asking the workers to go on leave so as they can rearrange themselves to accomodate them. The union has rejected this though. Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/24/2012 Posts: 331 Location: Vantage point
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dunkang wrote: KQ has already commited itself to accepting the staff already. They have already handed letters asking the workers to go on leave so as they can rearrange themselves to accomodate them. The union has rejected this though.
This is a chess game KQ is playing. Their vacant positions were filled by foreigners. Remember what happened when Telkom was being taken over by Orange? Most professional personnel were given jobs they didn't want in short raw deals at the same salary. I wouldn't even want to go back to a place am not wanted, the best thing is just to move on.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/2/2011 Posts: 4,818 Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
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Drobos fly wrote:dunkang wrote: KQ has already commited itself to accepting the staff already. They have already handed letters asking the workers to go on leave so as they can rearrange themselves to accomodate them. The union has rejected this though.
This is a chess game KQ is playing. Their vacant positions were filled by foreigners. Remember what happened when Telkom was being taken over by Orange? Most professional personnel were given jobs they didn't want in short raw deals at the same salary. I wouldn't even want to go back to a place am not wanted, the best thing is just to move on. @Drobos, i feel your pain but KQ can't win this case at all. Naikuni was misadviced by the company secretary big time. Mistreatment of the employees will lead to further loses for KQ. It should focus now on making use of the huge workforce. Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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Jamani wrote:Just thinking of the effects to shareholders and share price...... Sub-10 by this Friday! Portfolio: Sold You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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kollabo wrote:Where is the KQ lawyer who refused to "freeze" when an MP is talking? And you remind me of that scenario. How do you force a grown up man with body temperature of 37 degree Celsius to freeze in a room temperature of 25 degree? Eish, even if the guy was seating on a sofa-ice he wont freeze fully. Portfolio: Sold You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/12/2006 Posts: 1,554
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Drobos fly wrote:There is a probability that the tables will turn when KQ appeals. That judgement by the industrial court seems populist under some kind of political pressure, but lets wait and see. i thought the judiciary had reformed and is now independent..... do we still have political pressure influencing judgement?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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mazingira wrote:Just an observation BA are cutting 400 jobs too ...it's on bbc news BA is a Mammoth so 400 is a drop in a sea. Portfolio: Sold You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/24/2012 Posts: 331 Location: Vantage point
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dunkang wrote:
@Drobos, i feel your pain but KQ can't win this case at all. Naikuni was misadviced by the company secretary big time. Mistreatment of the employees will lead to further loses for KQ. It should focus now on making use of the huge workforce.
The court made accusations which KQ had failed to do in order to warrant a retrenchment. Now say employees are reinstated. To make sure the case works for them this time, conditions may be arranged such that retrenchment will be the only way out.. its more like a rat trap, you bait it with food under the false pretense it will benefit when it's inside, but really the end is to rid of it right? I can't see it any other way coz the fastest way to cut losses is through lay offs (employees are an appreciating cost) because you have salaries as an expense to the company not an asset. Same thing if you want to fly a plane and you realize that the plane can't lift off the first thing on your mind is offload excess language, not to go back to the garage and add a few more engines to give it the necessary thrust
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/24/2012 Posts: 331 Location: Vantage point
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Jamani wrote: i thought the judiciary had reformed and is now independent..... do we still have political pressure influencing judgement?
Lets take a practical example that happened recently not to long ago. Say I am an influential politician I comment "So and so should be reinstated back to work". Even before that comments becomes vaguely remembered you see things happening in sync with the comment. What do you call that?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/12/2006 Posts: 1,554
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Drobos fly wrote:Jamani wrote: i thought the judiciary had reformed and is now independent..... do we still have political pressure influencing judgement?
Lets take a practical example that happened recently not to long ago. Say I am an influential politician I comment "So and so should be reinstated back to work". Even before that comments becomes vaguely remembered you see things happening in sync with the comment. What do you call that? I just call it a comment not political interference or political influence.... and what if from the same politician the comment has legal sound bases and the judge rules using the same legal bases what will you call it? Look at the MRC cases, Embakasi Mp case, Kibs cases where he has appointed without regard of the law, politicians made comments would you say the courts ruled based on political influence or the law? Does it mean that if a political makes a comment on any legal matter then its political interference? do you imply that the judge made his ruling based on the comment and not legal facts?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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I blame this on Naikuni's arrogance when he was down sizing!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/25/2012 Posts: 4,105 Location: 08c
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Drobos fly wrote: The court made accusations which KQ had failed to do in order to warrant a retrenchment. Now say employees are reinstated. To make sure the case works for them this time, conditions may be arranged such that retrenchment will be the only way out.. its more like a rat trap, you bait it with food under the false pretense it will benefit when it's inside, but really the end is to rid of it right? I can't see it any other way coz the fastest way to cut losses is through lay offs (employees are an appreciating cost) because you have salaries as an expense to the company not an asset.
Same thing if you want to fly a plane and you realize that the plane can't lift off the first thing on your mind is offload excess language, not to go back to the garage and add a few more engines to give it the necessary thrust
I guess luggagePesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2012 Posts: 3,855 Location: Othumo
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McReggae wrote:I blame this on Naikuni's arrogance when he was down sizing!!!! Management should have followed the laid down procedures based on both Kenya labour laws and their own internal policies and procedures. for me the guy who should be taking the beating on this one is the HR Director because this problem has been created in his technical domain. Guys, by the way it is not that you cannot retrench or carry out redudancy process. But you MUST do it within the confines of the law! Thieves
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