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Bashir's reprisals?
josiah33
#41 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 4:09:16 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
josiah33 wrote:
If you really want to convince me that ICC is bullshit and only serves the purposes of the WEST-to tame Africa and it's despotic leaders-and would only go after African Presidents and not Western ones then i dare you to PULL OUT OF THE ICC all together. Why be party to some ROME STATUTE out of your own volition and then cry out loud that it's discriminatory and rubbish it at the same time, who are you Kidding?


Touche' my guy. ignore akina simonkabz and those advocating for the continuation of business as usual. The reaction of the Kibaki government is probably what made Bashir even more bold. As I wrote here before, how come Bashir has not imposed any sanctions against Museveni or South Africa or Rwanda, all this countries have sworn to arrest him if he visits them.

The only potential problem area is the flying over Sudan airspace. But I would imagine international air routes have some kind of protection.

Sure guy.
simonkabz
#42 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 4:22:59 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
@obi, sure, we seldom agree, n that is surely good for me. I wish ua brother OMBIja pulled a similar stance against Bush. I also hope Kenya stands to gain fm the warrant, and fm the ICC with ua uncle RAO freely roaming the streets! Bashir is a criminal, bt its none of our f***ing business.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
YesuWangu
#43 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 4:29:29 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/11/2010
Posts: 1,588
Bashir obviously note that Kenyans are a wobbly, beggarly lot. He is merely acting big and he has chosen to do so when Kenya is engaged in something new - invasion of another country. He supposes Kenya cant chew gum while walking.

What does Kenya, at the earnest prompting of some Kenyans do? Rush kneeling to Bashir, begging for reconsideration. Willing to put down their own country for free, for the Sudanese.
josiah33
#44 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 4:47:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Pray tell me, what does kenya begs from Al Bashir.Does he put some petro-moolah into some guys pockets here in kenya?
simonkabz
#45 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 4:55:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
YesuWangu wrote:
Bashir obviously note that Kenyans are a wobbly, beggarly lot. He is merely acting big and he has chosen to do so when Kenya is engaged in something new - invasion of another country. He supposes Kenya cant chew gum while walking.

What does Kenya, at the earnest prompting of some Kenyans do? Rush kneeling to Bashir, begging for reconsideration. Willing to put down their own country for free, for the Sudanese.

We could surely have avoided that situation, couldnt we? AVOIDING is my key word here. AVOIDING AVOIDING AVOIDING trouble. We unnecessarily threw stones into a beehive. Bt like someone said, the stings wont be too painful n will heal in due course. Next...
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
Obi 1 Kanobi
#46 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 5:01:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
simonkabz wrote:
@obi, sure, we seldom agree, n that is surely good for me. I wish ua brother OMBIja pulled a similar stance against Bush. I also hope Kenya stands to gain fm the warrant, and fm the ICC with ua uncle RAO freely roaming the streets! Bashir is a criminal, bt its none of our f***ing business.


Simonkabz.
It ain't a personal thing, lets just agree to disagree on principles.

I certainly almost never agree with most of your opinions on things but I am not in anyway suggesting that my way is better, we are just different.

Ombija, RAO,,,,I think I missed the connection
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
josiah33
#47 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 5:03:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
simonkabz wrote:
@obi, sure, we seldom agree, n that is surely good for me. I wish ua brother OMBIja pulled a similar stance against Bush. I also hope Kenya stands to gain fm the warrant, and fm the ICC with ua uncle RAO freely roaming the streets! Bashir is a criminal, bt its none of our f***ing business.

Am sure Ombija would do the same for Bush if he is a Judge worth any salt since Kenya is a Signatory of CAT(convention against torture).
limanika
#48 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 7:18:12 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/21/2011
Posts: 2,032
I agree 100% with this article by David Makali. Since Mo1 left power, Kenya does not think when it comes to foreign policy.

http://allafrica.com/stories/201112051974.html
Kratos
#49 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 8:38:33 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
All these posts later and the proponents cannot say what we are gaining by the arrest warrant. Some Kenyans are such hypocrites! They want to take the high moral ground as if Kenya is any better than Sudan. Most people here don't even know how the war there came about. Before we remove the speck in our neighbours eye shouldn't we first remove the log in ours? This self importance Kenyans have will lead us no where. We do not live in an ideal world and the sooner we get used to it the better for everyone.

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
simonkabz
#50 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 11:45:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
@kratos bravo! U used some very key terms..
1. ...cannot say what we are gaining by the warrant.
2. ...high moral ground as if we are better..
3. This self importance...
4. We do not live in an ideal world...
Dnt add anything. This is a true REALIST.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
YesuWangu
#51 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 7:33:25 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/11/2010
Posts: 1,588
Kratos wrote:
All these posts later and the proponents cannot say what we are gaining by the arrest warrant. Some Kenyans are such hypocrites! They want to take the high moral ground as if Kenya is any better than Sudan. Most people here don't even know how the war there came about. Before we remove the speck in our neighbours eye shouldn't we first remove the log in ours? This self importance Kenyans have will lead us no where. We do not live in an ideal world and the sooner we get used to it the better for everyone.


What we gain? Lets see.....um..... we gain by rushing to court and solving things in court. Remember some years back people of high morality were telling others of low morality 'Go to court'? Now they themselves don't want anything the court has decided. Talk of hypocrites!

We gain the rule of law, especially when moments of high emotions is around the corner next year. Maybe that is too minute to be mentioned?

What has made people now to change that they don't want things to go to court? Have they replaced the speck in their eyes with the log that they removed from their neighbors eyes?

josiah33
#52 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:42:19 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
YesuWangu wrote:
Kratos wrote:
All these posts later and the proponents cannot say what we are gaining by the arrest warrant. Some Kenyans are such hypocrites! They want to take the high moral ground as if Kenya is any better than Sudan. Most people here don't even know how the war there came about. Before we remove the speck in our neighbours eye shouldn't we first remove the log in ours? This self importance Kenyans have will lead us no where. We do not live in an ideal world and the sooner we get used to it the better for everyone.


What we gain? Lets see.....um..... we gain by rushing to court and solving things in court. Remember some years back people of high morality were telling others of low morality 'Go to court'? Now they themselves don't want anything the court has decided. Talk of hypocrites!

We gain the rule of law, especially when moments of high emotions is around the corner next year. Maybe that is too minute to be mentioned?

What has made people now to change that they don't want things to go to court? Have they replaced the speck in their eyes with the log that they removed from their neighbors eyes?


Boss, you've said it all. Let's start respecting the constitution and upholding the rule of law if we want to become a better kenya.
Kratos
#53 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:09:08 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
josiah33 wrote:
YesuWangu wrote:
Kratos wrote:
All these posts later and the proponents cannot say what we are gaining by the arrest warrant. Some Kenyans are such hypocrites! They want to take the high moral ground as if Kenya is any better than Sudan. Most people here don't even know how the war there came about. Before we remove the speck in our neighbours eye shouldn't we first remove the log in ours? This self importance Kenyans have will lead us no where. We do not live in an ideal world and the sooner we get used to it the better for everyone.


What we gain? Lets see.....um..... we gain by rushing to court and solving things in court. Remember some years back people of high morality were telling others of low morality 'Go to court'? Now they themselves don't want anything the court has decided. Talk of hypocrites!

We gain the rule of law, especially when moments of high emotions is around the corner next year. Maybe that is too minute to be mentioned?

What has made people now to change that they don't want things to go to court? Have they replaced the speck in their eyes with the log that they removed from their neighbors eyes?


Boss, you've said it all. Let's start respecting the constitution and upholding the rule of law if we want to become a better kenya.


Facts
1. Bashir is a popularly elected president of Sudan. (Unless someone has facts to the contrary)
2. Sudan is not a signatory of the ICC (We cant force them)
3. The Government of Kenya is not an enforcing arm of the ICC.(How many ICC member States have issued arrest warrants for him)

I am not in anyway a supporter of Bashir but I believe we need to set our priorities right. A man who has had his plot demolished at Syokimau will not suddenly be inspired by the Justice system if we were to arrest Bashir in his quest for justice. Have we finished with all the "petty" cases we have at the law courts such that we devote time to judgements that are irrelevant to the common mwananchi? Lets stop being pretentious and thinking that the world revolves around Kenya, it does not!

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
josiah33
#54 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:16:59 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Part of the problem after the 2007 elections was that one party did not have faith in our courts and the other party(the one that's among those rubbishing judge Ombija's ruling)asked the other to take their grievances to court. Now that we are seeing a judiciary that's willing to make some tough decision no matter how unpopular we are still complaining. When will we see reason?
Kratos
#55 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:27:42 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
josiah33 wrote:
Part of the problem after the 2007 elections was that one party did not have faith in our courts and the other party(the one that's among those rubbishing judge Ombija's ruling)asked the other to take their grievances to court. Now that we are seeing a judiciary that's willing to make some tough decision no matter how unpopular we are still complaining. When will we see reason?


The ruling is not unpopular. It is Irrelevant to Kenyans, there is a big difference. You cannot seriously compare 2007 scenario to the ICC case.

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
Kratos
#56 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:51:58 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
josiah33 wrote:
Part of the problem after the 2007 elections was that one party did not have faith in our courts and the other party(the one that's among those rubbishing judge Ombija's ruling)asked the other to take their grievances to court. Now that we are seeing a judiciary that's willing to make some tough decision no matter how unpopular we are still complaining. When will we see reason?


To add on, the justice system does not start and stop at the Courts. For Kenyans to gain confidence with the system we need to improve the whole procedure and not just the judgments. As an individual I should be confident that;
1.When I report a matter to the police/concerned authority, it will be taken up for proper investigations
2.As the aggrieved party I should be able to monitor the process
3.The person/s whom I have accused does not interfere with the investigations
4.The prosecutor or my lawyer is competent enough to handle my case
5.There is a time limit for which a case can be heard thereby not denying me justice
6.Records are kept and are accessible through trace (Hii mambo ya file haipatikani should not be there)
7.The judge does not collude with the other party hence influencing the outcome of the case
8.There is also a time limit as to the effect date of the judgment
9.The judgment meted out is commensurate with the crime (mambo ya mwizi wa kuku being jailed to 20 years and someone who eats up a whole parastatal only gets 2 years hapana!)
10.Etc..
See? Confidence in the Judiciary has nothing to do with one “activist minded judgment

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
josiah33
#57 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:05:24 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Kratos wrote:
josiah33 wrote:
Part of the problem after the 2007 elections was that one party did not have faith in our courts and the other party(the one that's among those rubbishing judge Ombija's ruling)asked the other to take their grievances to court. Now that we are seeing a judiciary that's willing to make some tough decision no matter how unpopular we are still complaining. When will we see reason?


The ruling is not unpopular. It is Irrelevant to Kenyans, there is a big difference. You cannot seriously compare 2007 scenario to the ICC case.

Whatever u say boss, no point arguing.
josiah33
#58 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:12:40 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Kratos wrote:
josiah33 wrote:
Part of the problem after the 2007 elections was that one party did not have faith in our courts and the other party(the one that's among those rubbishing judge Ombija's ruling)asked the other to take their grievances to court. Now that we are seeing a judiciary that's willing to make some tough decision no matter how unpopular we are still complaining. When will we see reason?


To add on, the justice system does not start and stop at the Courts. For Kenyans to gain confidence with the system we need to improve the whole procedure and not just the judgments. As an individual I should be confident that;
1.When I report a matter to the police/concerned authority, it will be taken up for proper investigations
2.As the aggrieved party I should be able to monitor the process
3.The person/s whom I have accused does not interfere with the investigations
4.The prosecutor or my lawyer is competent enough to handle my case
5.There is a time limit for which a case can be heard thereby not denying me justice
6.Records are kept and are accessible through trace (Hii mambo ya file haipatikani should not be there)
7.The judge does not collude with the other party hence influencing the outcome of the case
8.There is also a time limit as to the effect date of the judgment
9.The judgment meted out is commensurate with the crime (mambo ya mwizi wa kuku being jailed to 20 years and someone who eats up a whole parastatal only gets 2 years hapana!)
10.Etc..
See? Confidence in the Judiciary has nothing to do with one “activist minded judgment

I think Dr. Willy Mutunga is trying to take care of some of your concerns with the reforms he is carrying out to clean up the judiciary and digitisation of judiciary will also address some of your issues. As for the police, i didn't know they were part of the judiciary, am hearing this from you for the first time. I thought they were law enforcers and an extension of the Executive.
josiah33
#59 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:23:43 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Kratos wrote:
josiah33 wrote:
Part of the problem after the 2007 elections was that one party did not have faith in our courts and the other party(the one that's among those rubbishing judge Ombija's ruling)asked the other to take their grievances to court. Now that we are seeing a judiciary that's willing to make some tough decision no matter how unpopular we are still complaining. When will we see reason?


The ruling is not unpopular. It is Irrelevant to Kenyans, there is a big difference. You cannot seriously compare 2007 scenario to the ICC case.

It's unpopular with the Executive and it's more important to kenya than u would want to imagine. It means the beginning of the making of a democracy-where the judiciary is not an Extension of the Executive. It's time u and Al Bashir realised that a position taken by the Judiciary does not mean the Executive takes the same position. The judiciary can make decisions independent of the Executive and that's what a free and democratic state is all about. I don't blame Al Bahir- he doesn't understand the concept.
And when talking of 2007 in reference to the Al Bashir's ruling i was thinking of COURTS and i wasn't actually comparing the two.
madammary
#60 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 11:49:34 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/23/2011
Posts: 175
Location: Nairobi
Kratos wrote:
josiah33 wrote:
YesuWangu wrote:
Kratos wrote:
All these posts later and the proponents cannot say what we are gaining by the arrest warrant. Some Kenyans are such hypocrites! They want to take the high moral ground as if Kenya is any better than Sudan. Most people here don't even know how the war there came about. Before we remove the speck in our neighbours eye shouldn't we first remove the log in ours? This self importance Kenyans have will lead us no where. We do not live in an ideal world and the sooner we get used to it the better for everyone.


What we gain? Lets see.....um..... we gain by rushing to court and solving things in court. Remember some years back people of high morality were telling others of low morality 'Go to court'? Now they themselves don't want anything the court has decided. Talk of hypocrites!

We gain the rule of law, especially when moments of high emotions is around the corner next year. Maybe that is too minute to be mentioned?

What has made people now to change that they don't want things to go to court? Have they replaced the speck in their eyes with the log that they removed from their neighbors eyes?


Boss, you've said it all. Let's start respecting the constitution and upholding the rule of law if we want to become a better kenya.


Facts
1. Bashir is a popularly elected president of Sudan. (Unless someone has facts to the contrary)
2. Sudan is not a signatory of the ICC (We cant force them)
3. The Government of Kenya is not an enforcing arm of the ICC.(How many ICC member States have issued arrest warrants for him)

I am not in anyway a supporter of Bashir but I believe we need to set our priorities right. A man who has had his plot demolished at Syokimau will not suddenly be inspired by the Justice system if we were to arrest Bashir in his quest for justice. Have we finished with all the "petty" cases we have at the law courts such that we devote time to judgements that are irrelevant to the common mwananchi? Lets stop being pretentious and thinking that the world revolves around Kenya, it does not!

FACTS:
1.He might be popularly elected but that's still in doubt since there were massive opposition boycotts and allegations of fraud. He had said he will not seek re-election sometimes back seeing the revolts that were happening in the Arab world meaning he was beginning to doubt his popularity.
2.We are not forcing anything on Sudan and we are not telling them to arrest their own president.
3.Kenya is obliged to arrest Al Bashir if he sets foot in kenya since they agreed to be part and parcel of the Rome Statute. Bashir has travelled to a few countries since the warrants, some trips being cancelled the last minute after the hosts realised it would hurt there other agendas. Some presidents threatened to boycott some function if Al Bashir was present and he had had to reroute on a trip to china after his plane was refused passage over some country's airspace. As you can see governments are scared of him and he has not had the occassion to visit a country that is willing to arrest him or one that doesn't want anything to do with him. Uganda and Rwanda have declared they would arrest him if he sets foot in their countries.
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