Wazua
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Sudan women face death for Christianity
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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quicksand wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:FOR YOU ALL
1. Just because somebody accusing somebody of fornication or spreading corruption does not mean automatic application of the law. No, not like that.
2. Islamic law requires that there be four witnesses for the application of this law.
3. The witnesses must be reliable witnesses, not just anybody.
Just and righteous people. And without reliable four witnesses, the law cannot be applied.
4. That's why the number of cases of people executed, in the last 1400 years to today, they are very, very few. They can be counted.
5. The evidence can be: confession, or recordings, or video evidence, or a woman gets pregant and gives birth to a baby, she becomes pregnant while her husband is away or not married etc.
6. Where there is clear evidence, the law will apply.
#BringTheRuling This is a process and ritual, but it's not necessarily foolproof, especially when the idea that supports it is questionable. For example, take wazua's quote of the day, "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg "- Abraham Lincoln @tycho what is questionable? Islamic law is Law of God. Only God knows what is right and beneficial for His creation, and alternatively what is wrong and harmful. The Quran clearly states the lawful and unlawful actions. All Humans must follow this Law of God which is known as the 'Shariah' or Islamic Law. Your problem is not the law, your problem is, you don't believe it is from God. So right there is the problem. Even if it were not about this woman, it would have been something else. The part that says "there is no compulsion" is also from God, is it not? I have not read anywhere that there was evidence she spoke against Islam. She claimed to never having been a muslim in the first place!Therefore this treason charge you have levied does not pass muster. In essence, it boils down to this: You are free to leave Islam, but if you do, we will kill you. And you are so convinced she is guilty, it is frightening. In your realm, there is no one to defend innocent people against those who wilfully misinterpret law and abuse it. And you think the judge is mad, this is what is in your mind! @quicksand and that's where I tell you people are just speculating without knowing the exact ruling by the judge. There must have been a case. The judge must have made a ruling. The position is: You're free to leave Islam, but don't commit treason against Islam by preaching falsehood. Because how many people have left Islam? And how many have been executed? very, very countable. What I have been doing is explain the law of apostasy. Where is that ruling for you to be convinced she didn't commit treason?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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You have got to be kidding me with this thread..  Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:You say that your laws are from God, and they must be upheld. But even this particular case you are still extending your inconsistency. Why? Laws must attain a certain standard or requirement to be laws. Otherwise anyone would call any pronouncement a law. And the standard to be met must be open to reason across humanity irregardless of race.
Or is this God against some races and peoples?
Besides, God is a social construct. And more often than not, geopolitically limited. Otherwise, why isn't Confucius one of your prophets? Even when Mohammed was meditating in the cave, there were other people in other places. It's not reasonable, at least to imagine that there was only one spiritual person on earth.
So 'questionable' is the idea of calling a tail a leg. @tycho God Almighty (I'm not talking your man-god stuff here), has drawn for us a way of life to attain success in this world (caring for universe, relating to each other, caring for animals and plants etc). Humans meddled with this way. They made changes (google about changes in the original scripture revealed by God). Messengers were sent to bring back mankind to the correct path. Prophets were chosen by God. It's not a matter of choice, or attained by devotion or worship or self-control. Messengers were sent to all nations, to relay God's message, teach them principles of virteous life. SO there was not only one single spiritual leader, but many including Jesus (pbuh). But at that particular time when prophet Muhammad (pbuh), there was no spiritual leader (if you know of one, let me know), people had deviated from the path. Unfortunately, what you're saying can't be reasoned out. If it can, then it can only be done under a social context. If God is unreasonable then why should his laws be reasonable? Why should he let a prophet understand science? Now you're claiming that your God is unreasonable, unjust and inconsistent.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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guru267 wrote:You have got to be kidding me with this thread.. @guru, I was brought some porridge by my wife, at 6pm and it got cold and became like ugali, and I had to scoop it with a spoon... I've not even prayed Maghrib. I should go now...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:You say that your laws are from God, and they must be upheld. But even this particular case you are still extending your inconsistency. Why? Laws must attain a certain standard or requirement to be laws. Otherwise anyone would call any pronouncement a law. And the standard to be met must be open to reason across humanity irregardless of race.
Or is this God against some races and peoples?
Besides, God is a social construct. And more often than not, geopolitically limited. Otherwise, why isn't Confucius one of your prophets? Even when Mohammed was meditating in the cave, there were other people in other places. It's not reasonable, at least to imagine that there was only one spiritual person on earth.
So 'questionable' is the idea of calling a tail a leg. @tycho God Almighty (I'm not talking your man-god stuff here), has drawn for us a way of life to attain success in this world (caring for universe, relating to each other, caring for animals and plants etc). Humans meddled with this way. They made changes (google about changes in the original scripture revealed by God). Messengers were sent to bring back mankind to the correct path. Prophets were chosen by God. It's not a matter of choice, or attained by devotion or worship or self-control. Messengers were sent to all nations, to relay God's message, teach them principles of virteous life. SO there was not only one single spiritual leader, but many including Jesus (pbuh). But at that particular time when prophet Muhammad (pbuh), there was no spiritual leader (if you know of one, let me know), people had deviated from the path. Unfortunately, what you're saying can't be reasoned out. If it can, then it can only be done under a social context. If God is unreasonable then why should his laws be reasonable? Why should he let a prophet understand science? Now you're claiming that your God is unreasonable, unjust and inconsistent. @tycho the law of God is logical. Mention any, and I will show you the logic. Then you switched to allegation again.1. Where did I say the prophet understood science? 2. Where did I say God is unreasonable? I said the Quran is not a book of science, but it mentions many scientific facts. And it mentions these facts long before they were discovered. That does not mean the prophet whom the book was revealed through understood science.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:You didn't, and haven't mentioned the killing of the man. And that's why you and the laws in Sudan, or Islam are inconsistent. @tycho these are things that irk me about the so called Islamic states.. Most of them have manipulated true Islam to use it as a tool for dictatorship and oppressing women.. If a man and woman are convicted of adultery then BOTH of them should be stoned according to the Qur'an and Bible.. These things of stoning only women is an invention! Most misconceptions Christians have about Islam are driven by these oppressive "Islamic" states! The only true rightly guided Islamic state at this rate will be under Jesus Christ the Messiah! Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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quicksand wrote:If you were Sudanese and this woman was your sister, would you execute her on the charge of apostacy? I would follow the example of Christ and Muhammad and let her be. But that I said I would not condemn anyone who follows the law of Moses and executes her.. This is because neither Christ nor Muhammad abolished the law of Moses! Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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I will never worship a prophet dead or alive! I will never worship Christ or Muhammad! I WORSHIP GOD ALMIGHTY ALONE! Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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For the true Christian and Muslim believers! Deuteronomy 13:1 All I command you must keep and observe, add nothing to it and taking nothing away from it!Qur'an 5:87 O you who believe, do not prohibit things that are made lawful by GOD.Let those who have taken the UN and constitution to be there god be! Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:You say that your laws are from God, and they must be upheld. But even this particular case you are still extending your inconsistency. Why? Laws must attain a certain standard or requirement to be laws. Otherwise anyone would call any pronouncement a law. And the standard to be met must be open to reason across humanity irregardless of race.
Or is this God against some races and peoples?
Besides, God is a social construct. And more often than not, geopolitically limited. Otherwise, why isn't Confucius one of your prophets? Even when Mohammed was meditating in the cave, there were other people in other places. It's not reasonable, at least to imagine that there was only one spiritual person on earth.
So 'questionable' is the idea of calling a tail a leg. @tycho God Almighty (I'm not talking your man-god stuff here), has drawn for us a way of life to attain success in this world (caring for universe, relating to each other, caring for animals and plants etc). Humans meddled with this way. They made changes (google about changes in the original scripture revealed by God). Messengers were sent to bring back mankind to the correct path. Prophets were chosen by God. It's not a matter of choice, or attained by devotion or worship or self-control. Messengers were sent to all nations, to relay God's message, teach them principles of virteous life. SO there was not only one single spiritual leader, but many including Jesus (pbuh). But at that particular time when prophet Muhammad (pbuh), there was no spiritual leader (if you know of one, let me know), people had deviated from the path. Unfortunately, what you're saying can't be reasoned out. If it can, then it can only be done under a social context. If God is unreasonable then why should his laws be reasonable? Why should he let a prophet understand science? Now you're claiming that your God is unreasonable, unjust and inconsistent. @tycho the law of God is logical. Mention any, and I will show you the logic. Then you switched to allegation again.1. Where did I say the prophet understood science? 2. Where did I say God is unreasonable? I said the Quran is not a book of science, but it mentions many scientific facts. And it mentions these facts long before they were discovered. That does not mean the prophet whom the book was revealed through understood science. If God is logical then he is a social construct 'we'. About Mohammed and science I leave it to you to remember. Otherwise I have repeated myself enough.
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