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Centum pays out KSH 1 billion to employees
Bachuma Gate
#211 Posted : Monday, November 02, 2015 11:08:53 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 280
This same guy who lost big in Uchumi bought the Uchumi Branch next to KPLC years back from UCHUMI at a reasonable price using board and leased back to UCHUMI at reasonable rent.

We have to accept that even in school there were guys who were sharper than Ass.
DOH
VituVingiSana
#212 Posted : Monday, November 02, 2015 11:09:29 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,349
Location: Nairobi
dunkang wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
mv_ufanisi wrote:


Likely came from the bonus pool.

being a large shareholder and having board seats often means that you are likely to benefit from skewed company deals that other shareholders know nothing about.

remember the CMC guy Peter Muthoka and Andy Forwarder's deal? Andy Forwarders supposedly overcharged CMC by 1.5 billion because Peter was part of the board and could direct contracts to his company.

This is the kind of stuff ordinary shareholders never know about. Don't compare yourself with significant shareholders and insiders if you're not sure about the backroom board deals.

Peter Muthoka had voting clout [20% or so shareholding] on the board. His 'loss' on his 20% was adequately covered by the shady deals.
The guy with the most to lose in Centum is CK with 25-30% if anyone else does anything fishy.

@vvs - You are very familiar with Merali deals.

This is how these things work. I set up company A which is publicly traded in the NSE. I sell all of you shares but I retain controlling shares (Like 30%). Unknown to you, I have companies B, C, D and E where the shareholding is me my wife, kids and girlfriends. Through my influence, companies B, C, D and E are awarded contracts by A which are extremely skewed in their favour. In due course we all lose money in company A only that the money has been "lost" to my companies! I cry with you in the morning then go celebrate with my wife and kids in the afternoon!!!

To make sure employees don't payuka payuka ovyo, I can threaten them, employ selectively, put employees on a bonus galore or a combination of sorts!

Similar to what was done at Uchumi, eh?

Exactly. Ciano and team were the CEO and managers yet they were also the main suppliers. Do you think they care when share price tanks? NO!

Corporate Kenya is worse than GoK.

No. The taxpayer doesn't lose his shirt for an investment he didn't make in a private concern. You invest in a private firm at your own risk.
Through Warren Buffett's advice [as I have oft repeated here] do NOT invest in a firm, no matter how attractive it looks, if you do NOT trust the Board/Management. Period.

Firms I do not invest in:
Merali's firms - Never. Once I thought I should. Then I read the Annual Report re: Sameer Business Park.
GoK controlled e.g NBK - except KenRe [& perhaps KCB in the future]
Uchumi - I bailed out years ago at a huge profit. Went back in during the Rights. And walked out when I realized what a stupid mistake I had made.
Olympia - My worst investment.
KQ - I was badly burnt
Kuruwitu - Never put in a penny. No plans to either!
Home Afrika - I read the IM. Scam.
Mumias - I bailed out years ago. Never looked back.
And many others.

Where am I invested? [Sigh, cash is depleted]
Unga - Not coz of Ndegwas but Seaboard who seconded the MD.
KenRe - Yes, I made an exception coz the MD seems a good guy but if he leaves...
KenolKobil - Still hurting but Ohana is doing a-OK.
Williamson - Solid, private management. Long-term thinking.
I&M - 100% private. I watch it though.
Aga Khan firms - Good management. I buy on dips. Looking at more TPSEA.
Flame Tree - Just a few but I like it BUT I also watch it. I'd like to know whether the CEO (80% owner) has side deals as a supplier to FTGH.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
MaichBlack
#213 Posted : Monday, November 02, 2015 11:58:12 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,838
dunkang wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
mv_ufanisi wrote:


Likely came from the bonus pool.

being a large shareholder and having board seats often means that you are likely to benefit from skewed company deals that other shareholders know nothing about.

remember the CMC guy Peter Muthoka and Andy Forwarder's deal? Andy Forwarders supposedly overcharged CMC by 1.5 billion because Peter was part of the board and could direct contracts to his company.

This is the kind of stuff ordinary shareholders never know about. Don't compare yourself with significant shareholders and insiders if you're not sure about the backroom board deals.

Peter Muthoka had voting clout [20% or so shareholding] on the board. His 'loss' on his 20% was adequately covered by the shady deals.
The guy with the most to lose in Centum is CK with 25-30% if anyone else does anything fishy.

@vvs - You are very familiar with Merali deals.

This is how these things work. I set up company A which is publicly traded in the NSE. I sell all of you shares but I retain controlling shares (Like 30%). Unknown to you, I have companies B, C, D and E where the shareholding is me my wife, kids and girlfriends. Through my influence, companies B, C, D and E are awarded contracts by A which are extremely skewed in their favour. In due course we all lose money in company A only that the money has been "lost" to my companies! I cry with you in the morning then go celebrate with my wife and kids in the afternoon!!!

To make sure employees don't payuka payuka ovyo, I can threaten them, employ selectively, put employees on a bonus galore or a combination of sorts!

Similar to what was done at Uchumi, eh?

Exactly. Ciano and team were the CEO and managers yet they were also the main suppliers. Do you think they care when share price tanks? NO!

Corporate Kenya is worse than GoK.

This was round two. Round one was Dj!
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
VituVingiSana
#214 Posted : Tuesday, November 03, 2015 12:34:14 AM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,349
Location: Nairobi
MaichBlack wrote:
dunkang wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
mv_ufanisi wrote:


Likely came from the bonus pool.

being a large shareholder and having board seats often means that you are likely to benefit from skewed company deals that other shareholders know nothing about.

remember the CMC guy Peter Muthoka and Andy Forwarder's deal? Andy Forwarders supposedly overcharged CMC by 1.5 billion because Peter was part of the board and could direct contracts to his company.

This is the kind of stuff ordinary shareholders never know about. Don't compare yourself with significant shareholders and insiders if you're not sure about the backroom board deals.

Peter Muthoka had voting clout [20% or so shareholding] on the board. His 'loss' on his 20% was adequately covered by the shady deals.
The guy with the most to lose in Centum is CK with 25-30% if anyone else does anything fishy.

@vvs - You are very familiar with Merali deals.

This is how these things work. I set up company A which is publicly traded in the NSE. I sell all of you shares but I retain controlling shares (Like 30%). Unknown to you, I have companies B, C, D and E where the shareholding is me my wife, kids and girlfriends. Through my influence, companies B, C, D and E are awarded contracts by A which are extremely skewed in their favour. In due course we all lose money in company A only that the money has been "lost" to my companies! I cry with you in the morning then go celebrate with my wife and kids in the afternoon!!!

To make sure employees don't payuka payuka ovyo, I can threaten them, employ selectively, put employees on a bonus galore or a combination of sorts!

Similar to what was done at Uchumi, eh?

Exactly. Ciano and team were the CEO and managers yet they were also the main suppliers. Do you think they care when share price tanks? NO!

Corporate Kenya is worse than GoK.

This was round two. Round one wa Dj!

DJ
Ciano
Now the folks at Jamii Bora via Kipngetich.

Enjoy your ride. I am staying away.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
MaichBlack
#215 Posted : Tuesday, November 03, 2015 6:09:00 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,838
VituVingiSana wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
dunkang wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
mv_ufanisi wrote:


Likely came from the bonus pool.

being a large shareholder and having board seats often means that you are likely to benefit from skewed company deals that other shareholders know nothing about.

remember the CMC guy Peter Muthoka and Andy Forwarder's deal? Andy Forwarders supposedly overcharged CMC by 1.5 billion because Peter was part of the board and could direct contracts to his company.

This is the kind of stuff ordinary shareholders never know about. Don't compare yourself with significant shareholders and insiders if you're not sure about the backroom board deals.

Peter Muthoka had voting clout [20% or so shareholding] on the board. His 'loss' on his 20% was adequately covered by the shady deals.
The guy with the most to lose in Centum is CK with 25-30% if anyone else does anything fishy.

@vvs - You are very familiar with Merali deals.

This is how these things work. I set up company A which is publicly traded in the NSE. I sell all of you shares but I retain controlling shares (Like 30%). Unknown to you, I have companies B, C, D and E where the shareholding is me my wife, kids and girlfriends. Through my influence, companies B, C, D and E are awarded contracts by A which are extremely skewed in their favour. In due course we all lose money in company A only that the money has been "lost" to my companies! I cry with you in the morning then go celebrate with my wife and kids in the afternoon!!!

To make sure employees don't payuka payuka ovyo, I can threaten them, employ selectively, put employees on a bonus galore or a combination of sorts!

Similar to what was done at Uchumi, eh?

Exactly. Ciano and team were the CEO and managers yet they were also the main suppliers. Do you think they care when share price tanks? NO!

Corporate Kenya is worse than GoK.

This was round two. Round one wa Dj!

DJ
Ciano
Now the folks at Jamii Bora via Kipngetich.

Enjoy your ride. I am staying away.

Kipngetich has been a clean guy so far in his previous positions. Any skeletons?
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
VituVingiSana
#216 Posted : Tuesday, November 03, 2015 6:38:34 AM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,349
Location: Nairobi
@MaichBlack - The chaps of Jamii Bora are behind Kip. I am not so sure about them not Kip.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Bachuma Gate
#217 Posted : Tuesday, November 03, 2015 8:17:52 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 280
Was in school with CEO of Jamii Bora and worked with Tim. Clean guys. Their ambition I think is to have a strong solid bank and also diversify their investment hence Uchumi.

I think they saw the areas to make money was in Banking and retail sectors.

DOH
dunkang
#218 Posted : Tuesday, November 03, 2015 8:29:08 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,824
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
Bachuma Gate wrote:
Was in school with CEO of Jamii Bora and worked with Tim. Clean guys. Their ambition I think is to have a strong solid bank and also diversify their investment hence Uchumi.

I think they saw the areas to make money was in Banking and retail sectors.


I can't use clean with a human being. May be say, they are not as crazy as DJ CK and the Cianos.

Also, i think VVS was alluding to the owners not JBB employees. Like, Mworia is an employee at Centum, but DJ is the one who runs the show.
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

mv_ufanisi
#219 Posted : Tuesday, November 03, 2015 9:39:12 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/15/2010
Posts: 625
This bear seems to have pushed people to extreme pessimism and I'm one of them.
Centum not too long ago was a darling on Wazua. They had great projects in the pipeline, spitting a good game with regards to their vision for the future and getting great deals. While the stock price was going up people were happy. And ofcourse the Business Daily correspondent based in Centum kept supplying a steady stream of good news on the counter.
The bear seems to have hit Centum shareholders the worst, they were the most optimistic and to add insult to injury while shareholders lost value at the NSE, Centum was going crazy announcing how it's giving the biggest employee bonuses in the NSE.
The truth though always seems to be in the middle of extreme optimism and extreme pessimism.
Yes there's a stink coming from Centum because of the bonuses. The delay of the Two Rivers project shouldn't be a surprise for a project of its size. It's a little bit unclear whether there's some shady deals going on at Centum that skews returns for shareholders.

At the same time, Centum still remains quite a well diversified company with interests in multiple sectors. The fact that they held UAP at much less value on their books than what they eventually got (I think 2.2 billion versus 5 billion actual value) shows that they are being conservative and not trying to inflate asset values. They do have quite a number of talented guys at the company. James Mworia is a CFA charter holder (which means that he's smart and worked hard to earn that) and some of the employees are Tutu fellows, Alliance high school alumni etc. So you'd think that these are not the kind of people that would like to blow a career by taking a company down.

Their project execution has been quite exemplary - see Two Rivers from vision to execution and they have been quite bold with their projects. It's tough to find a team like that in Kenya and at a time when Africa is full of opportunities that would really be beneficial to a potential investor.

DJ CK is a looming presence on the company so you have to decide for yourself if he's likely to bring the company down and perhaps deal with another appearance at the courts a la Uchumi times. For the most part you have to check what his incentives are. Being such a large shareholder at Centum and staked his name on the company, he's more likely to benefit if the company valuation goes really north. Isn't his ambition to be a billionaire and appear on Forbes? Centum seems like the only vehicle that could achieve this for him.

Centum seems to have lost trust because of excessive executive compensation - they can redeem themselves by truly aligning employee and shareholder interests. For example, bonuses should at the very least not be paid on an annual basis but maybe in tranches of 5 years - that's anyways part of the 5 year planning tranches. That way employees focus on the long term. And atleast a large % of bonuses should be paid in company shares so employees and shareholders are in the same bus.
Summary: Centum is not as good or as bad as people make it out to be due to ups and downs of the NSE.
sparkly
#220 Posted : Tuesday, November 03, 2015 10:12:15 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
mv_ufanisi wrote:
This bear seems to have pushed people to extreme pessimism and I'm one of them.
Centum not too long ago was a darling on Wazua. They had great projects in the pipeline, spitting a good game with regards to their vision for the future and getting great deals. While the stock price was going up people were happy. And ofcourse the Business Daily correspondent based in Centum kept supplying a steady stream of good news on the counter.
The bear seems to have hit Centum shareholders the worst, they were the most optimistic and to add insult to injury while shareholders lost value at the NSE, Centum was going crazy announcing how it's giving the biggest employee bonuses in the NSE.
The truth though always seems to be in the middle of extreme optimism and extreme pessimism.
Yes there's a stink coming from Centum because of the bonuses. The delay of the Two Rivers project shouldn't be a surprise for a project of its size. It's a little bit unclear whether there's some shady deals going on at Centum that skews returns for shareholders.

At the same time, Centum still remains quite a well diversified company with interests in multiple sectors. The fact that they held UAP at much less value on their books than what they eventually got (I think 2.2 billion versus 5 billion actual value) shows that they are being conservative and not trying to inflate asset values. They do have quite a number of talented guys at the company. James Mworia is a CFA charter holder (which means that he's smart and worked hard to earn that) and some of the employees are Tutu fellows, Alliance high school alumni etc. So you'd think that these are not the kind of people that would like to blow a career by taking a company down.

Their project execution has been quite exemplary - see Two Rivers from vision to execution and they have been quite bold with their projects. It's tough to find a team like that in Kenya and at a time when Africa is full of opportunities that would really be beneficial to a potential investor.

DJ CK is a looming presence on the company so you have to decide for yourself if he's likely to bring the company down and perhaps deal with another appearance at the courts a la Uchumi times. For the most part you have to check what his incentives are. Being such a large shareholder at Centum and staked his name on the company, he's more likely to benefit if the company valuation goes really north. Isn't his ambition to be a billionaire and appear on Forbes? Centum seems like the only vehicle that could achieve this for him.

Centum seems to have lost trust because of excessive executive compensation - they can redeem themselves by truly aligning employee and shareholder interests. For example, bonuses should at the very least not be paid on an annual basis but maybe in tranches of 5 years - that's anyways part of the 5 year planning tranches. That way employees focus on the long term. And atleast a large % of bonuses should be paid in company shares so employees and shareholders are in the same bus.
Summary: Centum is not as good or as bad as people make it out to be due to ups and downs of the NSE.


Good writing till the conclusion where you have claimed that we are bashing Centum because we are suffering bear blues.

You remind me of Dr Jason Ndaka Kaviti who meticulously examined Dr Ouko's fractures, gunshot wounds, extensive burns then reached the conclusion that the man had committed suicide.
Life is short. Live passionately.
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