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Scholarships for poor children -
Ric dees
#21 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 2:12:00 PM
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Joined: 3/6/2008
Posts: 632

@Mukiha ..There you go again, redirection!!

The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic.
first body
#22 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:10:02 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 16
Very interesting.
@ Muhika you have a unique view on life. I agree with you poverty on it own should be the last consideration in a scholarship at university level but for primary and secondary education it should be the primary reason. I also think that for an individual from a poor family to achieve good results probably went through alot more but that should appear on the scholarship application as he articulates his life experience and why he deserves it.

@Ric dees if you play an instrument or 2, speak 3 or 4 foreign languages I you deserved the scholarship and i envy your brain. To add a spanner in your argument from my experiece coming from a poor family and getting a scholarship to study in the UK.I found the rich kids in my class including the africans were more altruistic in their outlook on life. My view though in line with theirs in words was never taken up in action. The rich are not as thick or undeserving as you would want us to believe. Food for thought.

@chepkel there are so many options he can follow instead of sitting and waiting. He can resit his 4 form and if he is as bright as you say he can get a better grade and the government can sponsor his university. He can go to polytechnic and learn a trade which will give him skills that will make him independent. University education speaking again from experience makes the large majority of students myopic to their options and inhibits out of the box thinking .... yes i am in that majority!
Ric dees
#23 Posted : Thursday, May 20, 2010 3:25:50 PM
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Joined: 3/6/2008
Posts: 632
@Firstbody Touche...

I have not categorically stated Rich kids are undeserving or thick...far from it Anderson Cooper( CNN) is A Vendewelt one of the richest families in the US and he is brilliant went to an lvy league school, but cases are far and beyond..

Am surprised you marvel at someone who speak 2-3 languages and plays an instrument?? I do not proclaim to but...

@Mukiha & Firstbody
You have a chance to hang out with either two people namely Bill Gates or Steven Hawking. who would you hang out with and why?


The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic.
chepkel
#24 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 7:00:56 AM
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Joined: 4/6/2010
Posts: 741
Location: Nairobi
Any person deserves a scholarship as long as he qualifies on the merits. But seriously, if my parents can afford my fees or if i can afford to pay my own fees then why the hell would i want to be granted a scholarship. Is that not selfish and ridiculous. A scholarship simply means that one will be sponsored for the course. So if i am rich or i can afford tuition and i qualify for admission then i would rather just get an admission and pay my fees. let another person have that chance.
gathinga
#25 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 9:41:38 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/30/2006
Posts: 635
Am glad I finally read this thread, I have been passing it all along. Its most interesting.

I went to High school in Nrb courtesy of a sponsor. My parents probably would have struggled to educate me through high school as I had the best grades amongst my siblings. This would however, have been at the expense of one or more of my siblings since they couldn't afford to educate all of us through high school.

In the school that I attended, and which is quite famous, the criteria for selection was a combination of poverty and strong grades in school. My lessons from this experience are varying;

1. Having been educated through high school(sponsor) and university (HELB), i finally got a career. This enabled me to educate my younger brother through university and put up some income generating projects for my other siblings and folks. They now live a much more decent life above the poverty line. The lesson is educate one poor kind and you move 10+ people above the poverty line.........Educate a dude from a rich family, move 0 people above poverty line. the poor kid also inspires the other kids in the village.

2. Besides poverty eradication, scholarships exist to advance and reward excellence. Dudes who are identified to be of extraordinary intelligence or passion and therefore significant chances of changing the world should indeed get scholarships; rich or poor.

3. The school i went to was a rich harvest ground foe American, Canadian, UK and Australian universities to recruit individuals for scholarships. Academic ability was usually the last on the list of desirable qualities. 1. Athletic ability 2. Religious affiliation 3. Athletic ability. These dudes were therefore chosen to represent their universities in sports events....similar to athletes acquiring Qatari citizenship. lesson: the guys awarding scholarships always have their own objectives at times parallel to those of the student.
chepkel
#26 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 9:56:11 AM
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Joined: 4/6/2010
Posts: 741
Location: Nairobi
@Gathiga, i like your post. I really like it. Educate a poor child and you educate many more educate a rich kid and you get 0. 9nevertheless, not in all cases)
Ric dees
#27 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 10:21:18 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/6/2008
Posts: 632

@Gathinga

That is exactly my point and in reference to my point that rich kids do not bring much to the table.

@Firstbody

Am not sure whether you did the essay on what benefit your scholarship will bring to the community but like Gathinga said, most rich kids cannot see beyond themselves..

During my graduation JK Rawlings was the guest speaker and her speech was: "The importance of imagination and the advantages of failure" Food for thought guys..

The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic.
bkismat
#28 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 11:04:37 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 2,375
My personal Story.
I completed class 8 when may dad was retiring from the civil service(Read one of the articles on Nation this week on the fate of most pensioners).I excelled in fact I was 4th in my district.Those days it was not the media circus we see currently during the release of results. Was invited to join a National School. The fees was way beyond what my dad could afford, in fact, impossible.The principal was hard hearted and we went back home with my dad.He went to follow his retirement benefits which those days could take up to half an year.I understand these days it takes 33 working days but I digress. Meanwhile I was cooling my heels at home.

Help came on the prize giving day for the best students in the KCPE when my headteacher realized I had not joined high school.She was horrified and organised an impromptu harambee where a neat amount was raised(God bless her soul)Luckily my dad also got his benefits just about that time. We went back to the Principal of the National School but he told us we were time barred and my chance had already been given to some other kid. I settled for a provincial school that accepted to take me in. My dad was lucky to get another job and we managed until 3rd form.All this time I tried unsuccessfully to get a bursary or a scholarship but always failed to do so, why I don't know.

Tragedy struck in after 3rd form that I nearly did not do the exam. I switched to a day school completed form 4 and got good grades and was able to join a very competetive course in university where I was assisted by HELB(Im faithfully repaying back my loan, it will assist somebody else.)I have a good job and is assisting in the education of my siblings.
The point of the whole story is I agree with Chepkel, why do you need a scholarship when you can afford it especially at secondary school level or undergrad. I agree that as from post graduate level it is acceptable whether for the rich or the poor but below that give to the deserving cases.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt...
-Mark Twain
gathinga
#29 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 3:14:31 PM
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Joined: 11/30/2006
Posts: 635
@RIC Dees. I remember the discussion we had at the SK mbuzi at the hutch. You mentioned that with the conservatives winning UK elections, the NHS budget is likely to be cut down substantially and jobs sacrificed, including yours. David cameron is now governing. I hope thats not the case currently. Whats the update?
Ric dees
#30 Posted : Friday, May 21, 2010 4:05:39 PM
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Joined: 3/6/2008
Posts: 632

@Gathinga
Now none of us imagined of a coalition and now they are bickering over petty issues, like who gets which house.
Case in point there is a mansion in Kent usually reserved for the Foreign Secretary and Nick Clegg is claiming the right to have his retreats there..so they are working a house sharing agreement with George Osborne ..interesting

Matters Economics, the Euro is in trouble and infact M/s Merkel has banned short trading in Germany, but the UK has says short sellers are welcome here...The two leaders have very different views on Europe Nick Clegg is very pro - Brussels while Cameron is not...lets see how this plays out.

The key issues that divide them are:

Capital Gains Tax - Tories fear their supporters will loose out if they embrace the Lib-dems policy of raising the rate from 18% to a level inline with income tax of 40 - 50%. This will hit second homes and Share sales.

Human Rights Act - Conservatives want to scrap the act, Lib-dems said "Do so at your own peril"

Foxhunting - blah blah blah

Taxburden - Lib dems want to cut inheritance tax and also question tax breaks for couples.

Banks - This is the BIGGEST of them all.They want to split banks to SEPARATE HIGH STREET BANKING and RISKY INVESTMENT FUNCTIONS.

This is very much like the US model..wonder how it will work??

All of a sudden immigration has taken a back seat..hence smiling kidogo.
Not sure you know this, they have lowered the minimum work permit qualifications to undergrad as opposed to Masters.However only guys form the wider EEA are getting workpermits.

The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic.
first body
#31 Posted : Saturday, May 22, 2010 5:55:36 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/6/2007
Posts: 16
@ric dees, To answer your question i would want to meet bill gates. He would be more interesting n world issues and not on newtonian or einsten issues. 2 I would probably understand him better. (That is irrelevant though because they are both from wealthy backgrounds)

I am from a poor background but thankfully i dont have a sob story to tell because all my siblings are doing well and most without a university education. Let me bring to your attention the rhodes scholarship. Rhodes scholars are chosen for their all roundedness and intelligence. Not because they are poor.
Extrapolating gathinga's logic. Educate a rich bill clinton who later creates clinton foundation ignoring his impact as president which helps hundreds of thousands to millions get out of poverty.
I am not advocating that poverty shouldn't be included but when deciding who to give a scholarship to merit, which is demonstrated by intelligence and well roundedness, i more important.
@Gathinga to extrapolate on your statement sponsor 1 rich person help a community.
gathinga
#32 Posted : Saturday, May 22, 2010 6:28:00 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/30/2006
Posts: 635
Ric dees wrote:

@Gathinga
Now none of us imagined of a coalition and now they are bickering over petty issues, like who gets which house.
Case in point there is a mansion in Kent usually reserved for the Foreign Secretary and Nick Clegg is claiming the right to have his retreats there..so they are working a house sharing agreement with George Osborne ..interesting

Matters Economics, the Euro is in trouble and infact M/s Merkel has banned short trading in Germany, but the UK has says short sellers are welcome here...The two leaders have very different views on Europe Nick Clegg is very pro - Brussels while Cameron is not...lets see how this plays out.

The key issues that divide them are:

Capital Gains Tax - Tories fear their supporters will loose out if they embrace the Lib-dems policy of raising the rate from 18% to a level inline with income tax of 40 - 50%. This will hit second homes and Share sales.

Human Rights Act - Conservatives want to scrap the act, Lib-dems said "Do so at your own peril"

Foxhunting - blah blah blah

Taxburden - Lib dems want to cut inheritance tax and also question tax breaks for couples.

Banks - This is the BIGGEST of them all.They want to split banks to SEPARATE HIGH STREET BANKING and RISKY INVESTMENT FUNCTIONS.

This is very much like the US model..wonder how it will work??

All of a sudden immigration has taken a back seat..hence smiling kidogo.
Not sure you know this, they have lowered the minimum work permit qualifications to undergrad as opposed to Masters.However only guys form the wider EEA are getting workpermits.


Who would have imagined a conlib coalition. Good for you though on the immigration front Liar Liar ..no wonder you were looking for a kenyan Nanny to boot.

Are the conservatives in agreement with liberals that banks need to be broken down. I think its a position popular with the masses everywhere given the reaction to Golman Sachs

Do lib dems want to cut inheritance tax really, i thought tax cutting was the realm of the conservatives whose supporters are more wealthy and most likely affected with these taxes
bkismat
#33 Posted : Sunday, May 23, 2010 5:06:05 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/23/2009
Posts: 2,375
@ first body to you they are sob stories, for me its real coz i experienced it.its like a white guy in America trying to tell a black guy that he understands what its like to be black but has never been in a black skin.

[quote=. Educate a rich bill clinton who later creates clinton foundation ignoring his impact as president which helps hundreds of thousands to millions get out of poverty.
[/quote]

Please read Bill Clinton's story and choose someone else as a poster boy for rich kids. I guess they are many.Quickest guide may be got from Wikipedia.
It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt...
-Mark Twain
kyt
#34 Posted : Sunday, May 23, 2010 11:59:33 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/7/2007
Posts: 2,182
from the storyline we needed scholarships bcoz ur parents were poor planners_let us not subject our kids to the same crap.
LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
Ric dees
#35 Posted : Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:08:17 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/6/2008
Posts: 632

@Mukiha..I'd like your input on this, though on a slightly different topic.

Why do you think Kenya is unable to tap the huge qualified, Kenyan human resource in the West?

Me and some professors from KeMU are coming up with some seminars in US and UK to address this issue and enlighten East Africans on the huge opportunities back in the region, and would be interested in your views and indeed the wider Wazua forum.

Do you think it's Investment based?
A disconnect of sorts??
Political etc.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated!

The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic.
mukiha
#36 Posted : Monday, June 14, 2010 3:11:34 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
chepkel wrote:
... Educate a poor child and you educate many more educate a rich kid and you get 0. (nevertheless, not in all cases)

I had never thought about it this way. From that angle it makes sense to give prefernce to kids from poor families

Ric dees wrote:

....rich kids do not bring much to the table.

This, however, is not convincing. If rich kids don't bring much to the table, then poor ones bring even less!!
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
mukiha
#37 Posted : Monday, June 14, 2010 3:31:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 4,114
Ric dees wrote:

@Mukiha..I'd like your input on this, though on a slightly different topic.

Why do you think Kenya is unable to tap the huge qualified, Kenyan human resource in the West?...
...
...
Do you think it's Investment based?
A disconnect of sorts??
Political etc.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated!


I think it has to do with economics: Kenyans (professionals and others) living abroad can get much more return from their daily activities than they would from the same work here.

On the other hand, when they send their savings back home, the returns on investment are much greater than what they can get in the developed economies. No wonder there is greater human flight out of the country and huge capital inflow from the diaspora.

If you want to Kenyans to come back and use their skills in building the nation, then two conditions must be met:

1. Work that challenges their skills must be made available. A former colleague went to the US to do a PhD in electronics. His research was on integrated circuit packaging. He got a job with an IC manufacturer on compeletion of studies. It's not a "high-flying" job in terms of pay (even though he earns much more than his previous job in Kenya), but the work is challenging and full-filling. He never feels that the 4 yrs of the PhD were "wasted".

2. The earning potential must be good enough to provide similar level of living as they had in the developed world.

These two are closely related.

Here is a personal experience that might shed some light:

I went for university studies (under- & post-graduate) in UK in the mid-1980s. Came back in 1990. Then I stayed jobless for a good six months. Eventually I did get employment in an area that I really felt challenged. The pay wasn't the greatest [many former school-mates with first degrees from local universities were earning several times my pay!!], but full-filled by the fact that I was making a positive contribution to the lives of very many people - to date, I think my work over the 12 years that I stayed in that job has touched several hundred thousand lives.
Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
Wendz
#38 Posted: : Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:12:07 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
mukiha wrote:

This, however, is not convincing. If rich kids don't bring much to the table, then poor ones bring even less!!


@Mukiha

I dont think i agree with you on this one. If for example you take two children. One from a poor background who got an A - few resources in terms of books, less access to teachers, long distance walks, hard labour at home vs a child from a rich family who got an A having gone to private schools with all the resources available and probably the most he ever did was wake up and study, i think these two children are worlds ahead.

That does not mean that a child from a rich family (I am actually working hard to be rich and am still hoping my son will get a scholarship) should be denied a scholarship just because he comes from a rich family. And it also does not mean that we cant get exceptionally talented/bright children from rich families, no we can. However, they are overshadowed by those who are pampered to attain the same level of academics and who would have really been challenged should they have been subjected to the poor child's situation.

But nevertheless, all things equal, i would grant the child from a poor family the scholarship because he has no other alternative unlike the other child who could still very well afford it.

On your post on brain drain, thats pretty enlightening.
gathinga
#39 Posted : Tuesday, June 15, 2010 4:47:43 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/30/2006
Posts: 635
mukiha wrote:
Ric dees wrote:

@Mukiha..I'd like your input on this, though on a slightly different topic.

Why do you think Kenya is unable to tap the huge qualified, Kenyan human resource in the West?...
...
...
Do you think it's Investment based?
A disconnect of sorts??
Political etc.

Your thoughts would be much appreciated!


I think it has to do with economics: Kenyans (professionals and others) living abroad can get much more return from their daily activities than they would from the same work here.

On the other hand, when they send their savings back home, the returns on investment are much greater than what they can get in the developed economies. No wonder there is greater human flight out of the country and huge capital inflow from the diaspora.

If you want to Kenyans to come back and use their skills in building the nation, then two conditions must be met:

1. Work that challenges their skills must be made available. A former colleague went to the US to do a PhD in electronics. His research was on integrated circuit packaging. He got a job with an IC manufacturer on compeletion of studies. It's not a "high-flying" job in terms of pay (even though he earns much more than his previous job in Kenya), but the work is challenging and full-filling. He never feels that the 4 yrs of the PhD were "wasted".

2. The earning potential must be good enough to provide similar level of living as they had in the developed world.

These two are closely related.

Here is a personal experience that might shed some light:

I went for university studies (under- & post-graduate) in UK in the mid-1980s. Came back in 1990. Then I stayed jobless for a good six months. Eventually I did get employment in an area that I really felt challenged. The pay wasn't the greatest [many former school-mates with first degrees from local universities were earning several times my pay!!], but full-filled by the fact that I was making a positive contribution to the lives of very many people - to date, I think my work over the 12 years that I stayed in that job has touched several hundred thousand lives.


Interesting issue on brain drain. Professor Calestous Juma from Harvard University shed some light on this during one of his lectures at the mindspeak club.

The good thing about his take on the issue was it came from him as part of his lecture and was not an answer to some question. So its likely to be from the heart.

Apparently, the biggest reason why brainy and 'thomed' chaps refuse to come home has nothing to do with money, pay, its all bout respect.

He gave an example of himself. He is doing stuff with KCA University and Multimedia University in Kisumu. Since they are involving him at a fairly high level, he feels they respect him, even though they dont pay, and therefore is more committed. He therefore splits his time between KCA and the paying harvard job.

Another example he gave was Ngugi Wathiongo. The guy came home as promised after Kanu was removed from power. He intended to start projects in literature and thespian education. The humiliation he underwent put paid to those dreams. He was more humiliated by the rape of his wife than by being detained by Moi...

I think respect is an issue.
Ric dees
#40 Posted : Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:07:01 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/6/2008
Posts: 632
I tend to agree with both Mukiha and Gathinga on their explanations regarding Human capital flight but if i may add a twist, for all those in the west we all agree you need to take a salary cut and worst of all a demotion of sorts, what is interesting is that most of us agree on this and are ready to take on this challenge.

The biggest issue i found is that, as both of you expressed is challenge does not exist and to put things to context let me site to examples.

I know one senior VP in Cisco US and obviously we cannot imagine she would find a similar challenge in Kenya, but recently when we were in Kenya she had presented a very workable project to the stakeholders which she was to oversee, but they all tended to shy away without any concrete reasons...

Secondly..i know a doctorate friend of mine who was headhunted from here to establish a creative writing center, the first of it's kind in the region in one of the private universities back home, quit their job came home, now they are pulling out of that project..(bollocks).

Lastly i met someone who hat put together a proposal, together with a consortium of investors from Europe to come and transform Webuye paper mill into a bio - facility, a project this consortium had embarked on across the world with outstanding results..well you all know our gova!!!

My observation is, it's true the challenge may not exist but when the challenge is brought in then the institutions tend to back down!! Are we scared of re-inventing the wheel or is it selfish motives??? Your thoughts please??




The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence; it is to act with yesterday's logic.
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