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Catalonian referendum and questions of nationhood
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@kusadikika, history, especially American history, can hardly be understood by reading Smith or Alexis.
Reason being that history is always non linear, and if anything, must always start from arbitrary points.
For example, why not start with the magna carta? The American constitution has a lot from the British philosophical traditions of earlier ages.
History is studied from present will and force of the historian and the evidence gathered is meant to justify a cause and course.
We can only understand American history by creating understanding of our present experiences...
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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masukuma wrote:Lolest! wrote:FRM2011 wrote:Lolest! wrote:Quote:Can't help but think maybe the residents of NEP would be better off today had they joined their kin in Somalia. How? After forcing them to stay when they wanted to leave, didn't we abandon them completely. The govt did not invest anything there. Wajir got its first inch of tarmac after devolution. I'm just looking at how many Somalia Somalis are bribing to get to Kenya Their businessmen and politicians wamejaza Kenya, looking for biz opportunities I'm sure NEP would be regretting if they had succeeded in joining Somalia Ask NEP if they feel it's a good Idea joining the greater somaliland... a djibuti, Ogaden, Somaliland, Somalia. in 2019, the Bougainvilleans will decide whether they want out of PNG. West Papua and Ache (Banda Ache???) want out of Indonesia, East Timor wanted out of Indonesia... YOU SEE... this is more common than we think! There was also the case of Tamils who wanted to secede from the Sinhalese in Sri Lanka. The main issue was thy felt like second class citizens,but I am not sure they would survive since the main resource they have is the port of Trincomale. After many years of the LTTE fighting the government, the almost 3decades of war led to a bloody defeat of the Tamils in 2009. Few later,president Mahinda lost the general election and was succeeded by a fellow Sinhalese who promised that the Tamils would be incorporated into government,a promise that had led to better life for Tamils. I think such cases should be allowed to secede as happened in Iraqi-Kurdistan,which remains a semiautinomous region, with Baghdad being the central government,and Kurdistan managing its own affairs + and its oil.The Kurds are regarded as the largest ethic group on world without a state. Maybe they should secede,since the PKK have been at it for long na mnaona the south can't keep their shit together As for SS,the secessionist lost the plot after Garang.Can we say there has been any significant change since they declared independence? I am happy
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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Lolest! wrote:FRM2011 wrote:Lolest! wrote:Quote:Can't help but think maybe the residents of NEP would be better off today had they joined their kin in Somalia. How? After forcing them to stay when they wanted to leave, didn't we abandon them completely. The govt did not invest anything there. Wajir got its first inch of tarmac after devolution. I'm just looking at how many Somalia Somalis are bribing to get to Kenya Their businessmen and politicians wamejaza Kenya, looking for biz opportunities I'm sure NEP would be regretting if they had succeeded in joining Somalia When the Somalis started bombing Kenya and even causing trouble in the refugee camps in hagadera and Ifo, one of my mates told me the older Kenyatta should have allowed them to secede and the issue ya kujilipua would have been confined to Somalia( well,before terrorism became global) plus the government would not need to be responsible for developing a semi-arid region. The Kibaki government made efforts to include and develop the region through vision 2030 I am happy
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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FRM2011 wrote:Njung'e wrote:We cannot compare NEP and the Ndii State with Catalonia. What needs to be said is that Catalonia was always a nation by itself until Philip the 5th invaded Barcelona in 1714. That nationhood has never gone away. It also happens that Catalonia is the richest of all the regions of Spain and Catalonians feel that the rest of the Spanish people live off their backs. It will, however take more than the current attempts since the Catalonians themselves are divided in the middle with the loyalists, who are referred to as Botiflers (Bootlickers of Philip the 5th)
Thanks @Guka for that perspective. Didn't know the history goes that far back. Let me pose a hypothetical question to you specifically. Suppose the catalonians were unanimous to the last man that they want independence (>95%), shouldn't divorce be the most palatable option ? Should Madrid's quest to preserve statehood overide the catalonians quest for nationhood ? And I agree with you, Ndii shouldn't feature anywhere on this thread. I think if a vote is allowed to go on, and Catalans know what exactly they are voting for (not like the Brexiters) and there is clear majority (in my opinion,votes such brexit should have a higher threshold,say 60% and above) they should be allowed to secede. I am happy
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/26/2007 Posts: 6,514
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Meanwhile, the results are coming in: https://www.theguardian....ain-catalonia-vote-live
Catalonia referendum: 90% voted for independence, say officials – as it happened. Having been to Barcelona a few years ago, I can tell you there was not a single Spanish flag flying anywhere...all the houses have the Catalan flag in their balconies, on their cars etc. They want to go, let them go. Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/19/2015 Posts: 2,871 Location: hapo
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A strange thing is happening worldwide called Nationalism. When Hitler was done away with, the Europeans thought that the end to all problems was killing off Nationalism as a concept and instead introduce statehood. It has worked thus far with serious consequences. The Kurds, Iranians, now even the Spaniards and not forgeting the Brits. Nationalism is taking hold. That's why Trump could win with the support of right wing nutcases. The question we should be asking is if the same is starting to take foot in Africa. And what are the consequences. I don't take lightly akina Ndii. Case in point is Cameroon, which is currently under a civil war that shall never be reported. Where the Anglophone and the Francophone are in a defacto war. The Anglophone have the same arguments as the catalonians. Different language and more resourses. The capital city has refused totally. Maybe we should start asking if the anti-christ is really not coming back. At the rate nationalism is growing, there may be no countries left in the next 50 years as we know them. Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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KulaRaha wrote:Meanwhile, the results are coming in: https://www.theguardian....ain-catalonia-vote-live
Catalonia referendum: 90% voted for independence, say officials – as it happened. Having been to Barcelona a few years ago, I can tell you there was not a single Spanish flag flying anywhere...all the houses have the Catalan flag in their balconies, on their cars etc. They want to go, let them go. It was bound to happen moreso since, Spanish loyalists in main Catalonia and Girona did not participate. It's also true Catalonians are a proud lot wherever you find them and they are many around the world especially in Mexico and Argentina. From where i stand, i would say, give them their wish yesterday. Will the Spanish government allow it?. I doubt. Back in 1930s, they tried it under Franco. It was crushed. The current PM Rajoy and Franco are no different. The fear here has allows been that, beside Catalonia, other regions such as Galicia,Andalucia and Basque have harboured some dreams of being free as well. Allowing Catalonia to go would open a pandoras box which would threaten the very existence of Spain.....it's a complex issue best left to the Spanish people. Nice to note you also travel. Was also recently in Barca but didn't stay long to ask around as i was on transit to Paree vide Figueres, Perpignan and Montpellier. Estacio de Barca -Sants and Gare de Lyon are the most beautiful train stations the world over. I need not comment about the Spanish TGV double decker train that ply Barcelona-Paris for i will shed tears if i have to compare that with our SGR rubbish  Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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alma1 wrote:A strange thing is happening worldwide called Nationalism. When Hitler was done away with, the Europeans thought that the end to all problems was killing off Nationalism as a concept and instead introduce statehood.
It has worked thus far with serious consequences. The Kurds, Iranians, now even the Spaniards and not forgeting the Brits. Nationalism is taking hold. That's why Trump could win with the support of right wing nutcases.
The question we should be asking is if the same is starting to take foot in Africa. And what are the consequences. I don't take lightly akina Ndii.
Case in point is Cameroon, which is currently under a civil war that shall never be reported. Where the Anglophone and the Francophone are in a defacto war. The Anglophone have the same arguments as the catalonians. Different language and more resourses. The capital city has refused totally.
Maybe we should start asking if the anti-christ is really not coming back. At the rate nationalism is growing, there may be no countries left in the next 50 years as we know them. Bodies politic are bound to be changing over time, but in the history of political thought nationalism and fascism are probably the most decadent of ideas. Economic systems are so skewed against most people that those who believe themselves to be better off are so scared of losing what they have. Worse still, the politics of knowledge are terroristic. See how scary the high priests like Stephen Hawkings, Dawkins and c. Lend credence to fear! There must be an alternative force to counter this decadence, and it would be difficult for it to come from the West or Asia.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/11/2015 Posts: 1,024
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Lolest! wrote:Anti_Burglar wrote:
Perhaps if there was a greater Somaliland, Said Barre and his government would have chosen a different path and the outcome and future of the region could have been very different from what it is now.
Kenya would have been a land locked country for starters.
shouldacouldawoulda But I've been asking myself my what-ifs too Like how would Kenya have been if we had remained with the old map where parts of today's Somalia upto Kismayu were in Kenya while Naivasha westwards was in Uganda?  How would Kenya have been a landlocked country if the NEP secession had succeeded? No, not that simple that had they seceeded then Kenya would have been landlocked, but rather had they been a large monolithic population that is not split into 2 different countries it could have played a part in them not descending into chaos after Said Barre, and then they would have had time, expertise and resources to pursue a certain case to its conclusion to Kenya's existential detriment. Shockingly despite all the chaos over there, the case is going badly for Kenya, just imagine. Kenya loses round one in sea row case with Somalia, just this year 2017
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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Njung'e wrote:KulaRaha wrote:Meanwhile, the results are coming in: https://www.theguardian....ain-catalonia-vote-live
Catalonia referendum: 90% voted for independence, say officials – as it happened. Having been to Barcelona a few years ago, I can tell you there was not a single Spanish flag flying anywhere...all the houses have the Catalan flag in their balconies, on their cars etc. They want to go, let them go. It was bound to happen moreso since, Spanish loyalists in main Catalonia and Girona did not participate. It's also true Catalonians are a proud lot wherever you find them and they are many around the world especially in Mexico and Argentina. From where i stand, i would say, give them their wish yesterday. Will the Spanish government allow it?. I doubt. Back in 1930s, they tried it under Franco. It was crushed. The current PM Rajoy and Franco are no different. The fear here has allows been that, beside Catalonia, other regions such as Galicia,Andalucia and Basque have harboured some dreams of being free as well. Allowing Catalonia to go would open a pandoras box which would threaten the very existence of Spain.....it's a complex issue best left to the Spanish people. Nice to note you also travel. Was also recently in Barca but didn't stay long to ask around as i was on transit to Paree vide Figueres, Perpignan and Montpellier. Estacio de Barca -Sants and Gare de Lyon are the most beautiful train stations the world over. I need not comment about the Spanish TGV double decker train that ply Barcelona-Paris for i will shed tears if i have to compare that with our SGR rubbish Oh yeah, Gare de Lyon is nice, I find it more imposing than beautiful. Speaking of comparisons,isn't it the same feeling you get after disembarking from international flights,ukifika JKiA and start being packed in bus ,and entering arrivals through some backdoor hehehe! It just feels worlds apart I am happy
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