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March 4 2013 Referedum on ICC!
mali ya nguvu
#11 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 2:44:54 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/7/2009
Posts: 115
Supposing Jubilee wins the elections and then two years down the line the ICC suspects are convicted, what is the position of our constitution in regard to transition?
josiah33
#12 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 3:33:28 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
tycho wrote:
And will they say that because the Kenyan courts have cleared them to run, then their innocence is proven? (In case, they are cleared)

If no. How can the 'referendum argument' be valid and true?

They are saying that because they must be proven guilty then the local courts have no business stopping them from running for the various offices.
josiah33
#13 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 3:52:06 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
tycho wrote:
mawinder wrote:
All laws and International conventions ratified by Kenya are part of our laws.The matter went to ICC because Kenya ratified the Rome statute i.e self referral unlike Bashir who was taken there by the UN Council.The constitution provides immunity to all criminal proceedings against a sitting president. When they win the elections expect that advice from the Attorney General.You can take this to I&M bank.


Isn't this a different argument? Does it mean the cases can't be put on hold till end of term?

There's nothing like a referendum on the ICC. Not unless we are talking of life presidency.

I think when we are talking of a 'referendum' on the ICC(NB:Referendum in quotes) all we are saying is that we want to find out if the voters(kenyans) really thinks the ICC should even be trying the suspects in the first place. Do we need ICC? That's what we are asking.
Impunity
#14 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 6:01:01 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,335
Location: Masada
Average votet's thought.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

B.Timer
#15 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 8:13:02 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
mawinder wrote:
All laws and International conventions ratified by Kenya are part of our laws.The matter went to ICC because Kenya ratified the Rome statute i.e self referral unlike Bashir who was taken there by the UN Council.The constitution provides immunity to all criminal proceedings against a sitting president. When they win the elections expect that advice from the Attorney General.You can take this to I&M bank.



Lets debunk some myths.

There are three main ways of getting cases to ICC

-By referral by UN security Council.
-The State itself petitioning ICC.
-The ICC prosecutor taking own initiative.

Hence even if Kenya were not party to the Rome charter, chances are that the PEV cases would still have ended up there!

Again, ICC is not subject to Kenya’s constitution. If the Indictees fail to show up for their cases (whether on account of AG advice or not) warrants of arrest will follow.

Thereafter, if the fugitives - as they will be called then,- travel to Rome statute member Countries they will be nabbed and handed to the Hague court.

Even assuming they are elected as President and D. President, (very unlikely if you ask me) and then they choose to travel to Hague for their cases, there is a huge chance that they could be locked in on account of flouting the conditions for remaining free while the cases proceed.

Now Imagine Kenya’s President and/or his deputy locked up in a cold Cell in Holland!
Dunia ni msongamano..
tycho
#16 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 8:20:49 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
josiah33 wrote:
tycho wrote:
mawinder wrote:
All laws and International conventions ratified by Kenya are part of our laws.The matter went to ICC because Kenya ratified the Rome statute i.e self referral unlike Bashir who was taken there by the UN Council.The constitution provides immunity to all criminal proceedings against a sitting president. When they win the elections expect that advice from the Attorney General.You can take this to I&M bank.


Isn't this a different argument? Does it mean the cases can't be put on hold till end of term?

There's nothing like a referendum on the ICC. Not unless we are talking of life presidency.

I think when we are talking of a 'referendum' on the ICC(NB:Referendum in quotes) all we are saying is that we want to find out if the voters(kenyans) really thinks the ICC should even be trying the suspects in the first place. Do we need ICC? That's what we are asking.


This question you are asking is equal to the question, 'Do we need justice?'

And I am saying it cannot be valid!

Justice cannot be subject to a referendum.

quicksand
#17 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 9:49:27 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
mawinder wrote:
@tycho,the cases will be on hold as long as they are in power.As for lifetime presidency,you know the constitution provides for a 5 year term with the option of another one 5 year term renewal upon election by at least 50%+1 kenyans and at least 25% of votes in 24 counties.

There will be no such thing as postponing the case ....they will use that stipulation in the constitution to avoid going to trial, ....then in contravention of international law. A legal quandary, but the Rome statute does not bow to local country laws. The only way is for supreme court to stop the presidential bid, kenya to sign out of the Rome treaty or the constitution to get amended. We wait and see.
xyzee
#18 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 10:10:17 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 1/9/2009
Posts: 1,262
And the 2 suspects are ready to hold Kenya at ransom in their fight with ICC and some kenyans are actually cheering them on all in the name of RAOPHOBIA? As Obako would say Bure kabisa!
richdad
#19 Posted : Tuesday, January 01, 2013 1:25:19 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/12/2010
Posts: 474
Location: Nairobi
Hii yote ni propaganda. Uhuruto any time!!! Can't trust presidency to akina Nyongo' na Raila. Better with suspects!!!
Keep it simple
Sufficiently Philanga....thropic
#20 Posted : Tuesday, January 01, 2013 1:45:56 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/23/2010
Posts: 2,225
Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
richdad wrote:
Hii yote ni propaganda. Uhuruto any time!!! Can't trust presidency to akina Nyongo' na Raila. Better with suspects!!!

Better vote for Kimenchussmile
@SufficientlyP
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