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CJ MUTUNGA roadblock
YesuWangu
#11 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:13:55 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 8/11/2010
Posts: 1,588
Macharia Gaitho says he just might vote for Ms Kingwa Kamencu.

smile smile

Tebes
#12 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:15:20 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/26/2008
Posts: 2,097
Will the new kid MDvd pass the integrity test under Chapter Six of the damn constitution? How will the 2/3rd Gender requirement be achieved now that Mutula with his ammendments is history at the Justice and Constitutional Affairs Ministry???
"Never regret, if its good, its wonderful. If its bad, its experience."
Elder
#13 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:37:54 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/7/2010
Posts: 2,148
Location: elderville
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Elder wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
Some wazuans don't appreciate the rule of law.
Let CJ do his job.
If it's in the constitution,its for Kenyans.

And what would that be? That is the problem that some of us have.

@mkeiyd don't you think that when we move from express provisions of the Constitution at Chapter Six to the spirit of that chapter (or the Constitution) then it can abused?



@Elder.
You are basically saying that you don't want to be subjected to scrutiny under this chapter. Anybody who wants to hold public office must be ready to be stripped to the bone.

Nope. I want scrutiny but the spirit bothers me. That is why I personally believe that the Chapter did not even have to appear in the Constitution at all, but that is another issue altogether.

My bone is with the spirit and where it could lead to. If I remember right the Chapter is clear that one would only be barred after he/she is convicted and the the last avenue of appeal has been exhausted.

However the spirit angle has seen instances where there is already, for example, calls Ruto and Uhuru not to run for president despite the fact that they are not convicted of any offense, merely charged.

Still, I will look at it with interest. I see other presidential candidates and their supporters blindly supporting the spirit angle to lock out their competition until they are charged (frivolously or otherwise) in court and get introduced to the spirit of our Constitution.
He who can express in words the ardour of his love, has but little love to express. - Petrach, Son. (That men by various ways arrive at the same end. - Montaigne, The Essays of.)
Obi 1 Kanobi
#14 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2012 2:50:46 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
Elder wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Elder wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
Some wazuans don't appreciate the rule of law.
Let CJ do his job.
If it's in the constitution,its for Kenyans.

And what would that be? That is the problem that some of us have.

@mkeiyd don't you think that when we move from express provisions of the Constitution at Chapter Six to the spirit of that chapter (or the Constitution) then it can abused?



@Elder.
You are basically saying that you don't want to be subjected to scrutiny under this chapter. Anybody who wants to hold public office must be ready to be stripped to the bone.

Nope. I want scrutiny but the spirit bothers me. That is why I personally believe that the Chapter did not even have to appear in the Constitution at all, but that is another issue altogether.

My bone is with the spirit and where it could lead to. If I remember right the Chapter is clear that one would only be barred after he/she is convicted and the the last avenue of appeal has been exhausted.

However the spirit angle has seen instances where there is already, for example, calls Ruto and Uhuru not to run for president despite the fact that they are not convicted of any offense, merely charged.

Still, I will look at it with interest. I see other presidential candidates and their supporters blindly supporting the spirit angle to lock out their competition until they are charged (frivolously or otherwise) in court and get introduced to the spirit of our Constitution.


Surely Elder. You must be abit uncomfortable with someone in Ruto/Uhuru's shoes running for president. Infact the whole point of this chapter was to protect the country against such a scenario. When/If the 2 are convicted, they will be out of the equation as they will be in hague and therefore there will be no need to refer to this chapter.

As we are now, these 2 cannot act in the best interest of this country and so certainly should not be allowed to become president.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
quicksand
#15 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:09:26 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Elder wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
Elder wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
Some wazuans don't appreciate the rule of law.
Let CJ do his job.
If it's in the constitution,its for Kenyans.

And what would that be? That is the problem that some of us have.

@mkeiyd don't you think that when we move from express provisions of the Constitution at Chapter Six to the spirit of that chapter (or the Constitution) then it can abused?



@Elder.
You are basically saying that you don't want to be subjected to scrutiny under this chapter. Anybody who wants to hold public office must be ready to be stripped to the bone.

Nope. I want scrutiny but the spirit bothers me. That is why I personally believe that the Chapter did not even have to appear in the Constitution at all, but that is another issue altogether.

My bone is with the spirit and where it could lead to. If I remember right the Chapter is clear that one would only be barred after he/she is convicted and the the last avenue of appeal has been exhausted.

However the spirit angle has seen instances where there is already, for example, calls Ruto and Uhuru not to run for president despite the fact that they are not convicted of any offense, merely charged.

Still, I will look at it with interest. I see other presidential candidates and their supporters blindly supporting the spirit angle to lock out their competition until they are charged (frivolously or otherwise) in court and get introduced to the spirit of our Constitution.


Surely Elder. You must be abit uncomfortable with someone in Ruto/Uhuru's shoes running for president. Infact the whole point of this chapter was to protect the country against such a scenario. When/If the 2 are convicted, they will be out of the equation as they will be in hague and therefore there will be no need to refer to this chapter.

As we are now, these 2 cannot act in the best interest of this country and so certainly should not be allowed to become president.


There are absolutes and then there is this spirit of the constitution. There is the potential for suits and countersuits, leaving us with a mess. The citizens should decide exactly what the spirit of the constition is on this subject. Charges of crimes against humanity are serious enough that we should have a referendum.
mkeiyd
#16 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2012 4:49:56 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 1,182
Elder wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
Some wazuans don't appreciate the rule of law.
Let CJ do his job.
If it's in the constitution,its for Kenyans.

And what would that be? That is the problem that some of us have.

@mkeiyd don't you think that when we move from express provisions of the Constitution at Chapter Six to the spirit of that chapter (or the Constitution) then it can abused?


@Elder, the constitution cannot contain all that should and should not be. It's not possible.
That's why specific laws come in to say expressly what's to be or not to be,based on the SPIRIT that you seem to despise.
Any act passed by parliament must be consistent with the constitution.
If such an act [now a bill] is to come as it is expected,then it is safe to work on the proviso that,the constitution, thru' the above spirit, bars people of questionable integrity.
The assumption of innocence till proven guilty is there to allow due process,not to give leeway to offenders,at the same time,defending the offenders' rights till conviction..
The matter in chapter six is to protect the nation,from alleged offenders.
@Elder,if Uhuruto is elected president, can you paint the kind of president/gov't/kenya we'll be having? A Bashir kind of president? A absentee president?
If convicted, another election costing billions?
For whose good @Elder?
FOR WHOSE GOOD?
AlphDoti
#17 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2012 7:31:51 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Thumbs up @mkeiyd. We as Wazuans should walk the talk.
nakujua
#18 Posted : Tuesday, June 05, 2012 10:04:44 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
mkeiyd wrote:
Elder wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
Some wazuans don't appreciate the rule of law.
Let CJ do his job.
If it's in the constitution,its for Kenyans.

And what would that be? That is the problem that some of us have.

@mkeiyd don't you think that when we move from express provisions of the Constitution at Chapter Six to the spirit of that chapter (or the Constitution) then it can abused?


@Elder, the constitution cannot contain all that should and should not be. It's not possible.
That's why specific laws come in to say expressly what's to be or not to be,based on the SPIRIT that you seem to despise.
Any act passed by parliament must be consistent with the constitution.
If such an act [now a bill] is to come as it is expected,then it is safe to work on the proviso that,the constitution, thru' the above spirit, bars people of questionable integrity.
The assumption of innocence till proven guilty is there to allow due process,not to give leeway to offenders,at the same time,defending the offenders' rights till conviction..
The matter in chapter six is to protect the nation,from alleged offenders.
@Elder,if Uhuruto is elected president, can you paint the kind of president/gov't/kenya we'll be having? A Bashir kind of president? A absentee president?
If convicted, another election costing billions?

For whose good @Elder?
FOR WHOSE GOOD?


I don't see whats wrong with a Bashir kind of president, i don't think there is much difference with say a US, Britain or Israel president.
If elected they will be immune from prosecution, so nothing to worry about.
Concerning the spirit, unless a referendum is called it will be hard to brew that spirit.
innairobi
#19 Posted : Wednesday, June 06, 2012 12:08:21 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/2/2010
Posts: 845
I don't see a problem with the application of chapter 6 unless it is applied selectively. As exciting as barring the O4 and wife beaters sounds, doing that while leaving people fingered in the maize scandal, Triton, Kisumu Molasses and whose names appear in the Ndungu Land Report can fuel discontent that pushes the country back to the cliff's edge.

Mutunga for all his kelele mingi and bravado is a reasonable guy. The Supreme Court will probably either unequivocally clear the 2 to run or issue a vague judgement that still allows them to run. Barring them will only be giving uhuruto more political mileage than they are worth. Think about what Ocampo did by saying he does not object to the trial starting after the polls. It pulls the rug under their feet. If he objected, it would only have given credence to the Western conspiracy theory.

Ultimately uhuruto might not run only because they have to be physically at the Hague and not because the judiciary bars them.
All my friends are heathens, take it slow. Wait for them to ask you who you know. Please don't make any sudden moves.
alma
#20 Posted : Wednesday, June 06, 2012 8:17:45 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
the "spirit" of the law is applied all over the world. only in kenya do we have judgements that have no spirits, morals or even hard liquor. most depended on how much money one had in their accounts.

those worrying about spirits in law should understand that that is what democracy is all about.

If the present parliament chose a liberal bench, then they should expect judgements to be liberal. If they chose a conservative bench, then decisions will be conservative.

That is what gives a constitution life. Decisions are based on where a society is in its growth curve.

Now who can doubt that the current growth curve in Kenya is to totally eliminate having thugs for candidates.

Maybe in 6 years time the bench will be too liberal to be palatable and we shall have the spirit in Kenya telling us that we need to be more reasonable.

But in 2012 the spirit in Kenya definitely says that we can't allow 2007 again, we can't allow drug dealers to make laws, and we can't allow thugs in suits making laws.

Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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