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JUSTICE OR POLITICS?
Drunkard
#21 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:16:38 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 559
@Madammary re-read my post! I am very sure I cover that too, but thanks for highlighting it.
josiah33
#22 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:30:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Drunkard wrote:
@ Josiah33,

What did Bush do? He invaded Iraq, he declare war according to the USA constitution, the casualties you see in Iraq and Afga... can me argued to be casualties of war. However, you cannot go to war against your own people, that is crime against humanity, you cannot also attack unarmed civillians during war, that is also crime against humanity, while there has been a number of civillian casualties in Iraq and Afga... there is no clear pattern to suggest that US is intentionally attacking civillians in Iraq or Afga, get the point?

BUSH illegally created a case for war with Iraq- including a propaganda campaign, falsely representing Iraq as responsible for 9/11, and falsely representing Iraq as an imminent danger to the United States.

LEGALITY OF THE IRAQ WAR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...egality_of_the_Iraq_War
bigbossman
#23 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:53:32 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/14/2012
Posts: 201
Location: nairobi
I am waiting to see how events unfold after the ruling of the ICC judges and am glad no kenyan saw the need not to keep peace after the crucial decision by them. Thumb up kenyans!!!!
LIFE IS SO GOOD
Drunkard
#24 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:00:34 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 559
@Josiah33.
Wikipedia is not a great place to cite anything, but I will take it, The creation of a case for war in Iraq could have been illegal and the administration admitted that they used flawed intelligence, and I agree you can argue the legallity of the invasion, but invasion alone do not meet the standards of crime against humanity, it is what you did while in that country that could amount to crime against humanity. The question is can anyone establish a pattern that could indicate crime against humanity in Iraq?
josiah33
#25 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:14:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
Drunkard wrote:
@Josiah33.
Wikipedia is not a great place to cite anything, but I will take it, The creation of a case for war in Iraq could have been illegal and the administration admitted that they used flawed intelligence, and I agree you can argue the legallity of the invasion, but invasion alone do not meet the standards of crime against humanity, it is what you did while in that country that could amount to crime against humanity. The question is can anyone establish a pattern that could indicate crime against humanity in Iraq?

1.5 million Iraqis were killed during the period of U.S. sanctions from 1990 to 2003 and another million died from the war and occupation of Iraq.
If that's not crime against humanity i don't know what else is.
josiah33
#26 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:22:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
@Drunkard Bush has got lots of problems now because of yet another international treaty-Convention Against Torture (CAT) which the US is a signatory to but is not willing to make him pay for his sins. When he travels to another country especially one that's a signatory to CAT he has to make sure the host country will not arrest him. He is guilty of torture ie.water boarding etc. And you want to tell me he is a great guy?
The US is under the obligation to prosecute Bush but it won't do that anytime soon. Imagine it were someone else from another weaker country-the US will be on that guy's case as if the the whole world's existence depended on his conviction.
Drunkard
#27 Posted : Tuesday, January 24, 2012 10:59:36 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 559
@Josiah33,
Dude, I am not in anyway arguing that Bush is a great guy or he is not, lets stick to the facts, we weren't even talking about CAT.

Your argument about Bush being arrest is also misinformed, unlike ICC, there is no court established for CAT and therefore there is no sitting Judge to issue a warrent! The main reason why suspected terrorist were detain in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba was to avoid violation of US constitution. The USA is not under any obligation to prosecute Bush, whether you like Bush or not, the fact of the matter is Bush enjoy(silent) immunity as a US president, I am not a Bush fun but I do not use emotion to debate facts.
alma
#28 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 7:36:55 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
When Africans run out of ideas, they blame the "west" whatever that means.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
McReggae
#29 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 8:25:37 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
alma wrote:
When Africans run out of ideas, they blame the "west" whatever that means.


Very true, we say some suspects whom we know were not picked by Ogambo, what has the kenyan govt done about the same 4 years down the line.....ZILCH!!!!!....now they want to fast truck IDP resettlement.....excuse me!!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
Sure
#30 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:44:58 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 546
Location: Garissa
bigbossman wrote:
Is the ICC credible and is there a possibility that it's used by Powerful Western countries as a political tool?


There is no question about that. Why didn't China ask Kenya government to respect the ICC ruling? Can you give me names of countries that finance the existence of ICC?

At the end of the day, America will prostitute us for many years to come in the name of imposing Justice.

Not to be mistaken for advocating for impunity, Uhuru has never helped me in any way. If he used Mungiki to stop the PEV, well, I thought I pay tax to sustain some policemen and the army to do that kind of dirty work. Ruto and Raila affected me when I lost a couple of millions at NSE due to PEV related issues. In short, they stole money from my pocket as they fought over who to become my president. Aint they idiots. Kibaki, he encouraged the violence through omission. I have no interest in all the others if these leaders are not put away in Mali to rot there.
Wisdom to detect when share prices hit rock bottom.
When interest on bonds keep going up, you know the bear run is on high street. When interest on bonds start leveling, the bear has met the bull and they have hit rock bottom. When the interest rates on bonds start coming down, the bull has overpowered the bear and you better be riding the bull.
Sure
#31 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:51:31 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 546
Location: Garissa
bigbossman wrote:
Think about it this way-the politics is in the actual hand picking of those who bear the greatest responsibility. By picking the six in a certain way it would still be legally correct and there is incriminating evidence against those picked but at the same time the choice of the top six would still further some political agenda. ICC is not as clean as you would want to imagine.


I can see the country is getting more and more people seeing through the Jungu veil. We have to realize that Africans have better brains but something somewhere went wrong and Jungus have sat on us for long. We need a revolution against the Jungu in the first place.

There is no way you would work with a Jungu without him conspiring on how to turn you into a long term slave.
Wisdom to detect when share prices hit rock bottom.
When interest on bonds keep going up, you know the bear run is on high street. When interest on bonds start leveling, the bear has met the bull and they have hit rock bottom. When the interest rates on bonds start coming down, the bull has overpowered the bear and you better be riding the bull.
Mainat
#32 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:22:50 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
"No Uhuru, No Erections!". Gatundu guys missed shule
Sehemu ndio nyumba
FundamentAli
#33 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 10:49:05 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 1,289
Location: Nairobi
josiah33 wrote:
madammary wrote:
It's justice and politics and at worse Selective justice and politics.

The US is not a signatory of the ICC and it cites infringement on their sovereignity as reason for not being party to ICC. Then the US which doesn't want ICC laws applying to them, wants the Kenyan Govt,Kenyans and the four suspects to fully cooperate with the ICC process and issues a statement to that effect. What does that mean to you?

The western world treats Africa like kids. With their failing economies, these countries will use any excuse to control African governments and hence our resources. Full cooperation with ICC is now a new conditionality that you will not hear the end of.
josiah33
#34 Posted : Wednesday, January 25, 2012 4:30:34 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
josiah33 wrote:
@Drunkard Bush has got lots of problems now because of yet another international treaty-Convention Against Torture (CAT) which the US is a signatory to but is not willing to make him pay for his sins. When he travels to another country especially one that's a signatory to CAT he has to make sure the host country will not arrest him. He is guilty of torture ie.water boarding etc. And you want to tell me he is a great guy?
The US is under the obligation to prosecute Bush but it won't do that anytime soon. Imagine it were someone else from another weaker country-the US will be on that guy's case as if the the whole world's existence depended on his conviction.

i was just trying to show that some countries will never let some of their own face charges against crimes while they insist that others comply. The US indeed has the obligation to have Bush tried for torture. About crimes against humanity, that's another story.

Article 6 of CAT:

1. Upon being satisfied, after an examination of information available to it, that the circumstances so warrant, any State Party in whose territory a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is present shall take him into custody or take other legal measures to ensure his presence. The custody and other legal measures shall be as provided in the law of that State but may be continued only for such time as is necessary to enable any criminal or extradition proceedings to be instituted.

2. Such State shall immediately make a preliminary inquiry into the facts.

3. Any person in custody pursuant to paragraph I of this article shall be assisted in communicating immediately with the nearest appropriate representative of the State of which he is a national, or, if he is a stateless person, with the representative of the State where he usually resides.

4. When a State, pursuant to this article, has taken a person into custody, it shall immediately notify the States referred to in article 5, paragraph 1, of the fact that such person is in custody and of the circumstances which warrant his detention. The State which makes the preliminary inquiry contemplated in paragraph 2 of this article shall promptly report its findings to the said States and shall indicate whether it intends to exercise jurisdiction.

P/S Article 4 states:
1. Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture. 2. Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.
shygal
#35 Posted : Thursday, January 26, 2012 8:53:33 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/31/2011
Posts: 90
bigbossman wrote:
Is the ICC credible and is there a possibility that it's used by Powerful Western countries as a political tool?

you tell me.
madammary
#36 Posted : Friday, January 27, 2012 10:36:23 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/23/2011
Posts: 175
Location: Nairobi
shygal wrote:
bigbossman wrote:
Is the ICC credible and is there a possibility that it's used by Powerful Western countries as a political tool?

you tell me.

half credible and half 'incredible'.
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