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Christianity Versus Education
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¿
#121 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 1:53:21 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:

Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.

What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.

How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.



You can't assure anyone of anything. You are just sharing your views on the nature of existence based on your limited ideas and concepts.

The idea that you are rejecting is that God is not an idea and may actually exist. You are simply sharing your beliefs and 'chest thumping' about the it's power and benefits.I believe you called this nonsense.


An idea may exist. 'tycho' is an idea, 'tycho' exists.

I can assure you of some things; like all ideas exist in the mind. There's no chest thumping there.




I don't deny that the idea you can assure anyone of anything exists in your mind.

The same way you are sharing your ideas,beliefs and their benefits is the same way others have shared theirs using ideas,concepts and beliefs.


That's true!


Chest thumping.
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tycho
#122 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 2:11:48 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:

Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.

What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.

How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.



You can't assure anyone of anything. You are just sharing your views on the nature of existence based on your limited ideas and concepts.

The idea that you are rejecting is that God is not an idea and may actually exist. You are simply sharing your beliefs and 'chest thumping' about the it's power and benefits.I believe you called this nonsense.


An idea may exist. 'tycho' is an idea, 'tycho' exists.

I can assure you of some things; like all ideas exist in the mind. There's no chest thumping there.




I don't deny that the idea you can assure anyone of anything exists in your mind.

The same way you are sharing your ideas,beliefs and their benefits is the same way others have shared theirs using ideas,concepts and beliefs.


That's true!


Chest thumping.


I'd not want this encounter to turn into argumenta ad hominem. So can I ask for leave to reflect on what we've shared? I have no doubt that there are some ideas that need to be restructured (even that of chest thumping).

Your ideas and concepts and beliefs have been most significant to me. And I don't deem mine to be better than anybody else's.
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tycho
#123 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 9:54:32 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
There are at least 3 ideas/ concepts here:

1. The idea that God doesn't exist
2. The idea that God isn't an idea
3. The idea that God is an abstract idea.

For all these I can find situation where each is true. Truth here being; consistent with other established concepts/plans, usable for forming new concepts/plans that help me meet my goals as an intelligent agent.

Therefore I accept all of these ideas. In fact, I can accept all ideas, even if they are apparently contradictory.

In fact, I realize that my approach to other 'mindsets' has been 'untrue'! Any belief system can accept any idea.

So, @¿, I accept your idea that God isn't an idea.
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Mike Ock
#124 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 10:18:59 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/22/2015
Posts: 682
The conversation between Tycho and Mr. Question Mark is a shining example of how arguments meander when neither side has evidence for their claims. How about the two of you exchange emails and continue your pseudo intellectual banter there?
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tycho
#125 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 10:27:29 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Mike Ock wrote:
The conversation between Tycho and Mr. Question Mark is a shining example of how arguments meander when neither side has evidence for their claims. How about the two of you exchange emails and continue your pseudo intellectual banter there?


I think every idea has evidence to support it. The idea source. So what other evidence would you want?

Or would you also want to exchange your email address?
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Mike Ock
#126 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 10:36:43 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/22/2015
Posts: 682
@masukuma you may be right that religion is a tool for control, but those are not its origins. The reason religion cropped up in every society on earth was because of a need to understand this world we live in. Humans have a natural tendency to ask WHO did this, rather than WHAT did this, hence our world was explained by early societies using all the various gods you see around.

Eventually people realised how far others were willing to bend their minds in the name of their god, and thus the opium use case emerged.
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  | | Edit by user: Sunday, August 09, 2015 10:41 PM | Reason: Not specified
¿
#127 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 10:40:00 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
Mike Ock wrote:
The conversation between Tycho and Mr. Question Mark is a shining example of how arguments meander when neither side has evidence for their claims. How about the two of you exchange emails and continue your pseudo intellectual banter there?


Exactly.

Some ideas and views are more 'equal' than others. I'll leave it at that.
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tycho
#128 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 11:09:34 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Mike Ock wrote:
@masukuma you may be right that religion is a tool for control, but those are not its origins. The reason religion cropped up in every society on earth was because of a need to understand this world we live in. Humans have a natural tendency to ask WHO did this, rather than WHAT did this, hence our world was explained by early societies using all the various gods you see around.

Eventually people realised how far others were willing to bend their minds in the name of their god, and thus the opium use case emerged.


And WHAT evidence is there for this assertion? And how can we know the evidence is 'true'? For example you haven't shown how you concluded that the ancients asked more of WHO than WHAT.

I don't think the conversation has meandered in any way. Like so far, we have evidence of three apparently different ideas interacting. They have provided an opportunity for us to see how a belief system can interact with a stream of 'new' ideas - like in Christianity versus 'Education'. Or the correlation between lowering of belief and increase of information or knowledge in a system.
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tycho
#129 Posted : Sunday, August 09, 2015 11:51:15 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
There are many ways of getting or providing education. For example, there's the 'banking' method where the student goes through a prescribed syllabus and has to know whatever has been prescribed and prove it through a test. And there's a 'constructivist' approach where the student is encouraged to solve his own questions using the syllabus.

So my question is, does, or would faith dwindle in the same way if both education methods are compared? What if the 'problem' is in the education?

A faulty education process can still have valid IQ tests and results!
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tycho
#130 Posted : Monday, August 10, 2015 7:51:04 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
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