As long as there's a symbol, or entity then there's a concept and idea. So what you're basically saying is that, 'there can be no determination of concepts using other concepts' and that's not true!

Non concepts go with non expression. Silence. Formlessness. But words create. Existence is purely in the domain of words.

It's possible to appreciate this last proposition you've made in the context of ideas and concepts. The limit to it is that if there was absolutely no human or creatures with similar linguistic capacity, then the situation you're talking about would absolutely not exist.

Clearly, what we have here is a 'disagreement' of ideas and concepts. That's to be expected of humans because each human, based on his experience has his own belief structure and belief dynamics.

What I can assure you is that one can't talk or know of something if it's not an idea in the mind.

How, when and why ideas change is an issue that may be beyond the scope of this thread. But at least I have shared a perspective whose usefulness and explanatory power is enough to facilitate survival and mutual coexistence of the human species irrespective of difference in faith and creed.

An idea may exist. 'tycho' is an idea, 'tycho' exists.

I can assure you of some things; like all ideas exist in the mind. There's no chest thumping there.

That's true!