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UN Security Council finally agrees to defer case?
Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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masukuma wrote:ecstacy wrote:TAZ wrote:masukuma wrote:Mimi nasema asiende... Quote me! Hii sarakasi tunaona kwa TV is a waste of time. His trial should proceed however! Kwani kazi ya rais nikukaa kwa kiti the whole day? He does not add value to this farce of a case. 3 weeks ameketi huko? Kwendeni huko... He should engage the court at his own terms ama watu wafly kites... He is president and they are not. I agree, the case should proceed but hii mambo ya kusema he has to be physically present at the ICC throughout his trial ndio nimekataa. As a sitting President who has already demonstrated that he is willing to co-operate with the court he should be excused from continuous presence during his trial. I think the the mandatory sessions should be during the opening/closing of the trial and delivery of judgment. That application is still pending, i just hope the ICC judges will see some sense in that..... What if they don't see sense in that? Should he still go?.. why are people wasting time with the ICC? Don't solve political problems administratively! the ICC is a bureaucratic organization that follows rules and laws - if it is not present in law they will not execute it HOWEVER those laws allow the UN security council to call back the dog and it obeys. the problem with the UN security council is that its a group of 5 that never agrees on anything and if a single person/country disagrees then the resolution is thrown out. this is why the AU is useful... citing insecurity and related stuff the UN security council can be convinced to refer/defer the cases as requested but I am not so sure that they will all play ball coz watu kama the French may not agree. The problem with the current situation is the EU owning the narrative set out from the AU meeting. France have interests in Somalian seas and could just want to cut a bad deal for us - a deal all the same would be struck.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/15/2012 Posts: 1,110
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alma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:tycho wrote:@Innovate, before 'peace' or 'justice' comes truth. The way forward is to secure 'truth', then everything else can follow.
As stated earlier, let's think of the end, then work our way backwards. Do we want peace? Do we want justice? Do we want both justice and peace without compromising any of the two?
Let's connect the dots first before determining which direction to take.
Isn't the ICC seeking the truth? If so, we might have chosen justice over peace - deliberately or without our knowledge. Why should peace and justice be mutually exclusive? Which school of thought is this one?
Justice and Peace live together hand in hand. Only fear keeps the two apart. And fear thrives where there is no truth True. Justice and peace, can coexist. With the precarious situation we are in now, how do you propose we go forward? Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:McReggae wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:tycho wrote:ecstacy wrote:tycho wrote:
If, we negotiate with the ICC tactfully, we can avoid making this a chest thumping competition and come with a real solution to and for the common man.
How do we negotiate with the ICC tactfully? I like your thoughts but you can't simply get in and out of international obligations when you discover they are somewhat manipulated. Diplomatic pressure has to be brought to bear and with no economic clout we only have the AU membership to legally(safely) make this point. I agree with you on the use of diplomatic force, but the common man can also be handy here. It's about fostering agreement among ourselves. As for the ICC, we will not be walking in and out, but we will be affirming and protecting it. Let's give ICC what it wants but in this case some negotiations have to take place. And will it be the first time a prosecution will cut a deal? A deal that will leave it's position stronger? This whole thing is politics, and why should we cheer others as they play? If the common citizen can get something of value out of this why shouldn't he go for it? I care about justice, and I see a different kind of genocide where young men and women are killed every day in the fight against crime. Nowadays children have become robbers. The gap between the rich and poor is still widening as we quote 'Locke'. What's the point of all this circus? The ICC should help stop it by working with and for the 'sufferers of the world'. Perhaps I should put this matter better by sharing my personal experience on this. Everyday I visit a friend who was shot on the back during PEV and left paralyzed waist down. He's a young man who suddenly found himself deserted even by his wife and children. He is a strong man and does well in taking care of himself, but think about the children. They must at least have some explanation to all these experiences they're having. Should I be shouting about whether the President should or shouldn't go? The question is where's my son, daughter, brother . . . father, and unfortunately over a thousand are missing on this account. How will UK's imprisonment answer this question? Am I prepared to tell the Children that it's because Uhuru and Sang are bad people and thankfully they are behind bars? God forbid! My goggles can't see justice there.
Short-term gains vs long term gains. As a country, should we go for peace or for justice? Some feel that three people should be held responsible for the PEV. Others feel that communities that were fighting came together, which negates the need for justice.
Climbing the tree starts from the bottom. Focusing on the end and then working our way backwards can be a good starting point. Above all, the bottom part of the tree is as important as the the top part. But the focus in now shifting. It's back to square one. Which way forward? Came together? You sure about that? Kiuks and Kaleos. They now 'share' power. it is a step in the right direction. Aha...implying only kiuks and kaleos suffered in the PEV......I don't think kaleos even make it into the top 3 of communities that suffered but ISORAIT!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2008 Posts: 4,449
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Nomanoma wrote:And for those arguing that President Kenyatta is no longer a private person --- Bill Clinton was a public servant ad he went through a humiliating public trial. Try this one. A trial of Tony Blair for War Crimes at some new ICC offices in Beijing or Moscow where Blair is actually a private citizen. Let us be honest..
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/15/2012 Posts: 1,110
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tycho wrote:@Masukuma, at least let others forgive people they know and can relate with and to.
Give those who can forgive a chance to learn and improve their lot. Let's not speak about Cambodia and try to fit ourselves to their experience alone, let's also raise standards. Truth is rarely vindictive. In short, you favor peace over justice. As you correctly state, seeking the truth brings about the element of vindication. But should be seek vindication in the long run? Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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InnovateGuy wrote:alma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:tycho wrote:@Innovate, before 'peace' or 'justice' comes truth. The way forward is to secure 'truth', then everything else can follow.
As stated earlier, let's think of the end, then work our way backwards. Do we want peace? Do we want justice? Do we want both justice and peace without compromising any of the two?
Let's connect the dots first before determining which direction to take.
Isn't the ICC seeking the truth? If so, we might have chosen justice over peace - deliberately or without our knowledge. Why should peace and justice be mutually exclusive? Which school of thought is this one?
Justice and Peace live together hand in hand. Only fear keeps the two apart. And fear thrives where there is no truth True. Justice and peace, can coexist. With the precarious situation we are in now, how do you propose we go forward? I will agree with Tycho. Only truth can set this country free. With Truth may come empathy, then forgiveness. Forgiveness can never come before truth. You don't forgive enemies, you forgive people you understand. Right now we have been told to forgive, forget and move on. In that order. Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/15/2012 Posts: 1,110
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alma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:alma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:tycho wrote:@Innovate, before 'peace' or 'justice' comes truth. The way forward is to secure 'truth', then everything else can follow.
As stated earlier, let's think of the end, then work our way backwards. Do we want peace? Do we want justice? Do we want both justice and peace without compromising any of the two?
Let's connect the dots first before determining which direction to take.
Isn't the ICC seeking the truth? If so, we might have chosen justice over peace - deliberately or without our knowledge. Why should peace and justice be mutually exclusive? Which school of thought is this one?
Justice and Peace live together hand in hand. Only fear keeps the two apart. And fear thrives where there is no truth True. Justice and peace, can coexist. With the precarious situation we are in now, how do you propose we go forward? I will agree with Tycho. Only truth can set this country free. With Truth may come empathy, then forgiveness. Forgiveness can never come before truth. You don't forgive enemies, you forgive people you understand. Right now we have been told to forgive, forget and move on. In that order. I also agree with Tycho. We need the truth before we move forward. But he also concedes that truth is rarely vindictive! This means that we should tread carefully on where we seek the truth. An 'homegrown' mechanism could be better than a 'foreign' process.
Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/15/2012 Posts: 1,110
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McReggae wrote:masukuma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:McReggae wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:tycho wrote:ecstacy wrote:tycho wrote:
If, we negotiate with the ICC tactfully, we can avoid making this a chest thumping competition and come with a real solution to and for the common man.
How do we negotiate with the ICC tactfully? I like your thoughts but you can't simply get in and out of international obligations when you discover they are somewhat manipulated. Diplomatic pressure has to be brought to bear and with no economic clout we only have the AU membership to legally(safely) make this point. I agree with you on the use of diplomatic force, but the common man can also be handy here. It's about fostering agreement among ourselves. As for the ICC, we will not be walking in and out, but we will be affirming and protecting it. Let's give ICC what it wants but in this case some negotiations have to take place. And will it be the first time a prosecution will cut a deal? A deal that will leave it's position stronger? This whole thing is politics, and why should we cheer others as they play? If the common citizen can get something of value out of this why shouldn't he go for it? I care about justice, and I see a different kind of genocide where young men and women are killed every day in the fight against crime. Nowadays children have become robbers. The gap between the rich and poor is still widening as we quote 'Locke'. What's the point of all this circus? The ICC should help stop it by working with and for the 'sufferers of the world'. Perhaps I should put this matter better by sharing my personal experience on this. Everyday I visit a friend who was shot on the back during PEV and left paralyzed waist down. He's a young man who suddenly found himself deserted even by his wife and children. He is a strong man and does well in taking care of himself, but think about the children. They must at least have some explanation to all these experiences they're having. Should I be shouting about whether the President should or shouldn't go? The question is where's my son, daughter, brother . . . father, and unfortunately over a thousand are missing on this account. How will UK's imprisonment answer this question? Am I prepared to tell the Children that it's because Uhuru and Sang are bad people and thankfully they are behind bars? God forbid! My goggles can't see justice there.
Short-term gains vs long term gains. As a country, should we go for peace or for justice? Some feel that three people should be held responsible for the PEV. Others feel that communities that were fighting came together, which negates the need for justice.
Climbing the tree starts from the bottom. Focusing on the end and then working our way backwards can be a good starting point. Above all, the bottom part of the tree is as important as the the top part. But the focus in now shifting. It's back to square one. Which way forward? Came together? You sure about that? Kiuks and Kaleos. They now 'share' power. it is a step in the right direction. Aha...implying only kiuks and kaleos suffered in the PEV......I don't think kaleos even make it into the top 3 of communities that suffered but ISORAIT!!!! Judge Krieglar and Waki could be good reference points. These two communities have fought for resources (read land) even before 2007! Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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InnovateGuy wrote:alma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:alma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:tycho wrote:@Innovate, before 'peace' or 'justice' comes truth. The way forward is to secure 'truth', then everything else can follow.
As stated earlier, let's think of the end, then work our way backwards. Do we want peace? Do we want justice? Do we want both justice and peace without compromising any of the two?
Let's connect the dots first before determining which direction to take.
Isn't the ICC seeking the truth? If so, we might have chosen justice over peace - deliberately or without our knowledge. Why should peace and justice be mutually exclusive? Which school of thought is this one?
Justice and Peace live together hand in hand. Only fear keeps the two apart. And fear thrives where there is no truth True. Justice and peace, can coexist. With the precarious situation we are in now, how do you propose we go forward? I will agree with Tycho. Only truth can set this country free. With Truth may come empathy, then forgiveness. Forgiveness can never come before truth. You don't forgive enemies, you forgive people you understand. Right now we have been told to forgive, forget and move on. In that order. I also agree with Tycho. We need the truth before we move forward. But he also concedes that truth is rarely vindictive! This means that we should tread carefully on where we seek the truth. An 'homegrown' mechanism could be better than a 'foreign' process.
Truth can never appear if there is no expectation of justice. A "homegrown" solution has never worked simply because Justice in whatever form, be it retribution or forgiveness, has never been expected. We had "the truth, justice and reconciliation commission". the truth was told, justice was denied and reconciliation or forgiveness happened in a book that is gathering dust at state house. Expectations to outcomes is paramount even in scientific experiments. The scientist starts with a theory that is either confirmed or denied. In our case, the Expectation is obvious. Nothing will happen. So why bother trying (doing an experiment)? So the truth will never appear. Hence reconciliation will remain a mirage and Justice will never be seen to have been served. You say tread carefully because you know, expectations are low. Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:@Masukuma, at least let others forgive people they know and can relate with and to.
Give those who can forgive a chance to learn and improve their lot. Let's not speak about Cambodia and try to fit ourselves to their experience alone, let's also raise standards. Truth is rarely vindictive. this is my assessment of conflict world wide... Justice is a means to ensure that people move on... All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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