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Christianity Versus Education
tycho
#101 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 10:59:45 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.

Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.

I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning.


Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence.

Science doesn't know if God exists.

Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept.


God is an abstract concept of course.
¿
#102 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 11:02:01 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.

Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.

I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning.


Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence.

Science doesn't know if God exists.

Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept.


God is an abstract concept of course.


And that is an assumption.
tycho
#103 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 11:21:04 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.

Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.

I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning.


Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence.

Science doesn't know if God exists.

Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept.


God is an abstract concept of course.


And that is an assumption.


Assumption entails abstraction. The moment one uses language, or a symbol, or experiences, there must be abstraction. Even 'knowing' is abstraction.
¿
#104 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 11:51:14 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.

Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.

I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning.


Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence.

Science doesn't know if God exists.

Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept.


God is an abstract concept of course.


And that is an assumption.


Assumption entails abstraction. The moment one uses language, or a symbol, or experiences, there must be abstraction. Even 'knowing' is abstraction.


In other words,you don't 'know' but you 'believe' God doesn't exist and from that belief you give meaning to experience.

An educated theist can 'believe' God exists and from that belief give meaning to experience.
tycho
#105 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 12:02:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.

Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.

I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning.


Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence.

Science doesn't know if God exists.

Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept.


God is an abstract concept of course.


And that is an assumption.


Assumption entails abstraction. The moment one uses language, or a symbol, or experiences, there must be abstraction. Even 'knowing' is abstraction.


In other words,you don't 'know' but you 'believe' God doesn't exist and from that belief you give meaning to experience.

An educated theist can 'believe' God exists and from that belief give meaning to experience.


Don't forget that 'knowledge' entails abstraction. Knowledge and belief systems are merely tools to give meaning to experience.
¿
#106 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 12:42:08 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
¿ wrote:
tycho wrote:
@¿ I agree that science hasn't proven that it knows everything in the universe even if 'God' isn't there. I also agree that I am giving meaning to experience, and so is theism, or atheism.

Even you, when you say 'God', or 'old religion' are doing the same thing, undeniably using 'abstract concepts'.

I conceded all this with @masukuma way back in post #69. That's why I also mentioned 'Pragmatism' and experience being the center of the 'intelligent agent' and intelligent questioning.


Science doesn't know everything.If anything it knows it knows very little about our existence.

Science doesn't know if God exists.

Yet you are claiming God is an abstract concept.


God is an abstract concept of course.


And that is an assumption.


Assumption entails abstraction. The moment one uses language, or a symbol, or experiences, there must be abstraction. Even 'knowing' is abstraction.


In other words,you don't 'know' but you 'believe' God doesn't exist and from that belief you give meaning to experience.

An educated theist can 'believe' God exists and from that belief give meaning to experience.


Don't forget that 'knowledge' entails abstraction. Knowledge and belief systems are merely tools to give meaning to experience.


Abstraction does not mean God is an abstract concept or God doesn't exist. That is a gap you have filled with belief.

Based on assumptions you are giving meaning to knowledge,belief systems and God in a manner that reflects your beliefs.
tycho
#107 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 5:35:29 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@¿, I will try to show you how 'God' is abstract, and how 'he' is a concept. Then I'll show how 'belief' is related to abstract concepts.

'God' is a noun. Nouns represent specific things. 'Things' imply 'identification' and 'seperation'; but how is 'identification' and 'seperation' possible? How does one know 'it' is a 'cup'? There must be some structure and function associated with it. That structure and function doesn't reside in the 'it'. If you break 'it' the structure and function remains, but where is this structure and function? In the mind. The mind? Where's the mind? 'Things' in the mind include 'ideas' and associations of 'ideas'. Structure and function entail ideas and association of ideas- what we know as concepts, and concepts entail abstraction.

Therefore, identification and differentiation entails abstraction and conceptualization. All nouns are abstract concepts. 'tycho' is an abstract concept.

Let's test this assertion. Moses the prophet wants to see God. But God isn't in the thunder. . . in the end, God is, 'I am who I am'. Beyond instantiation - only possible via conceptualization.

Belief is basically using concepts and ideas to prescribed effects. Belief, as you pointed out, is for filling gaps. Gaps imply states, and states, experience. Belief transforms experience; and at the same time experience transforms belief. Meaning emerges from this process.

There's something else. The most energetic forms of matter are removed from definite forms and are almost random statistical configurations- abstract concepts.

Other animals have no linguistic capacity because they can't create abstract concepts. The power of abstraction and conceptualization is 'mystical'. The mind isn't visible. How powerful is it?



sparkly
#108 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:53:43 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
In the words of a professor ideas.ted.com/why-humans-run-the-world/
Life is short. Live passionately.
¿
#109 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 7:34:22 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 6/4/2015
Posts: 604
@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist.
tycho
#110 Posted : Saturday, August 08, 2015 8:02:16 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
¿ wrote:
@tycho - Let me clarify, I am talking about the existence of God. You are talking about an idea of God. This idea is shaped by your beliefs,the assumptions they rely on and the meaning you give existence. On that level God is an abstract concept but that does not mean God does not exist.


One can only talk of ideas and concepts. And beliefs. That's as far as talk can go. One can only clarify ideas and concepts. This is the limit I suspect you haven't appreciated.
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