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America Choices have Consequences Jibberish
masukuma
#91 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 3:27:01 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
FRM2011 wrote:
masukuma wrote:
you don't get to come to life again once you are dead... once you are dead.. you are dead. your wife becomes a widow and your kids become fatherless. try to not give anyone an excuse to do that to your loved ones. There are bad people out there - just try and get home! We agree that there are systemic issues that need to be sorted but don't be stupid enough to think that the time to test whether those issues have been fixed or not is when your are pulled over by a cop. in Kenya it's the kurusha mdomo 'I know my rights..."


Good thinking. Kenya history 101. 1986-1992. When Moi was pushed to the corner he fought back viciously to break the spirit (and often the body) of the soldiers on the front line. Matiba, Rubia and others. Kibaki was watching the duel from a safe point on the fence.

Matiba is in terrible shape at the coast. Kibs, well, we built a new home for him in nyeri, a petrol station, a 700mn office, an attractive retirement package and a place in history books.

yeah realpolitik! ideology is for fools! This is a world where cheetahs (the fastest land animal on the planet) are almost extinct and vultures and hyenas thrive! it doesn't have to be pretty... it just needs to work! working is keeping you alive! long live turncoats! long live opportunists!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
alma1
#92 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 4:20:16 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 9/19/2015
Posts: 2,871
Location: hapo
These are the kind of stories that make people like Tycho earn their living...The philosophers amongst us...Not mutahi ngunyi

This is a shake up of the human pyche or the chicken coming home to roost.

It's a fact that cops in the US target blacks...Sorry for anyone in the US but that's just something they have to get in touch with.

It's also a fact that Kenyan cops have the same habit of if you are broke we may find you in a river soon.

It's a fact that people have a habit of keeping quiet until it personally affects them...Most of the time you can get away with it, but this week, where can you run?

The chief of the Dallas police a black man trying to lead reforms, well, his own son killed a cop.

You can't make some of this stuff up.

America is now in turmoil and as long as that fellow Trump is tweeting, there shall be more to come.

The question for Kenyans is what are we learning?

For how long shall we continue entertaining Trump like rhetoric expecting it only to annoy others not in our camp?

Americans kept quiet for a long time as this was going on...Now they can't run away from it.

What about us? How long shall be continue entertaining crooked traffic cops, rogue cops and snipers in our midst thinking that it can only harm the other fellow, not me?

Do we even have the capacity to even deal with something of this nature?
Thieves are not good people. Tumeelewana?

enyands
#93 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 4:32:52 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,301
Location: kenya
alma1 wrote:
These are the kind of stories that make people like Tycho earn their living...The philosophers amongst us...Not mutahi ngunyi

This is a shake up of the human pyche or the chicken coming home to roost.

It's a fact that cops in the US target blacks...Sorry for anyone in the US but that's just something they have to get in touch with.

It's also a fact that Kenyan cops have the same habit of if you are broke we may find you in a river soon.

It's a fact that people have a habit of keeping quiet until it personally affects them...Most of the time you can get away with it, but this week, where can you run?

The chief of the Dallas police a black man trying to lead reforms, well, his own son killed a cop.

You can't make some of this stuff up.

America is now in turmoil and as long as that fellow Trump is tweeting, there shall be more to come.

The question for Kenyans is what are we learning?

For how long shall we continue entertaining Trump like rhetoric expecting it only to annoy others not in our camp?

Americans kept quiet for a long time as this was going on...Now they can't run away from it.

What about us? How long shall be continue entertaining crooked traffic cops, rogue cops and snipers in our midst thinking that it can only harm the other fellow, not me?

Do we even have the capacity to even deal with something of this nature?



Alma1 it just starts with the head of the snake .that's all. In kenya if the head of the snake shows serious commitments then there will be change. But should the head be quite then the vice will go on.that's just me
enyands
#94 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 4:48:09 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,301
Location: kenya
masukuma wrote:
enyands wrote:
tycho wrote:
@enyands, a thief holding me up and eliciting cooperation isn't the same as a black living in a country controlled by whites. If it is, then we can be sure that not only will the thief go away with what he wants, but that the black citizen will receive nothing of value from his compliance.
the black citizen will receive another chance for life.He will get his freedom temporarily and he can live to see tomorrow.It sounds weird and not right but it is what it is.lets not bury our head in the sand. its the damn reality
And what will you say about Kenya; is it a white man's country with a black majority? Because even here the white rules?
you know how the whites rule us its because our leaders sold our countries to the whites.Be it the day of Nabongo mumia-when awarded bicycle for cooperation to the mzungu or right now through loans that come with condtions and kickbacks to cooperating leaders ref-Gichuru and Chris okemo.either way they rule the world and we have to dance to their tune to survive. Gadaffi tried to not dance and you saw what happened, same as saddam .its the sad bit im sorry
@masukuma, I understand your subjective wisdom; unfortunately it's not only too narrow but impractical when it comes to macro-thinking. For example, the Nigerian man in Italy though desiring to be with his wife had no option but to accept going to heaven. American independence wasn't won by an army of bachelors, and no existing state was established by those who thought going home to your wife is a given no matter how unjust a system is... But I think I should stop here... let me let slaves be.


in find this funny .if you live in a foreign country expect to be a slave of their system.either through paying taxes or modern form of discrimination. Even african americans know it .that's why they are rebellious . You'd rather be a slave to your own people in kenya -mpigs than mzungu.so do us a favor ,if you feel you don't want to lie down with submission or you feel your pride is too big to kiss a white man's ass in a white man's country come back home .we will welcome you .though life will be hard but the thing you value most which is dignity will be restored .I'll wait for you at jkia smile this is friendly though ,na usijam

@tycho - if someone feels passionate enough to go risk life and limb to fight a war - by all means... i will not stop him. Let him or her go and risk it. If they survive I will clap when they come home. I respect that. BUT ME? I AM NOT THAT TYPE OF PERSON! I am the proprietor of an organization called 'numero uno'! when asked to pick a side - i pick the side that has 'numero uno' written all over it. it's a choice I made. I respect all other choices. If chants from others make you hot in the collar and make your blood pump - I respect that. I will step out of the way for you to go and fight... Do you know that Dedan Kimathi saying?
Quote:
I would rather die on my legs than live on my knees
- I respect that! I bet the person who recorded it and shared it with the rest of humanity was ALIVE! anyway... I step aside - by all means tycho - go fight this war of freedom and right and justice. My desires are more local - I just want to go home! Let's agree and move on! There are people like me and there are people like you! When it's done and dusted people like me write heroic stories about people like you! We buy you beers when you come home as victors! we create memorials for people like you if the side you were on wins but you never make it 'home'.



Well said.especially they story of dedan kimathi.he preferred to die on his legs than knees .the person who heard this and wrote it is alive but dedan died on his legs. That's a good message.

Cowards live longer.be one .we need you .don't want to go to mwakilishi and read sad stories.

On a different note I heard stories that people from Africa in the usa when pulled over,the police are usually more defused than african americans ,especially with an accent.Rarely do you hear Africans get in trouble with police or shot at.I guess it's because of our attitude towards the police ama sijui kama ni our upbringing?i don't know and don't like generalizing .
tycho
#95 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 4:59:27 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
masukuma wrote:
FRM2011 wrote:
masukuma wrote:
you don't get to come to life again once you are dead... once you are dead.. you are dead. your wife becomes a widow and your kids become fatherless. try to not give anyone an excuse to do that to your loved ones. There are bad people out there - just try and get home! We agree that there are systemic issues that need to be sorted but don't be stupid enough to think that the time to test whether those issues have been fixed or not is when your are pulled over by a cop. in Kenya it's the kurusha mdomo 'I know my rights..."


Good thinking. Kenya history 101. 1986-1992. When Moi was pushed to the corner he fought back viciously to break the spirit (and often the body) of the soldiers on the front line. Matiba, Rubia and others. Kibaki was watching the duel from a safe point on the fence.

Matiba is in terrible shape at the coast. Kibs, well, we built a new home for him in nyeri, a petrol station, a 700mn office, an attractive retirement package and a place in history books.

yeah realpolitik! ideology is for fools! This is a world where cheetahs (the fastest land animal on the planet) are almost extinct and vultures and hyenas thrive! it doesn't have to be pretty... it just needs to work! working is keeping you alive! long live turncoats! long live opportunists!


Argument from ignorance. Even this 'realpolitik' you're talking about is ideology.
masukuma
#96 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 5:06:27 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
masukuma wrote:
FRM2011 wrote:
masukuma wrote:
you don't get to come to life again once you are dead... once you are dead.. you are dead. your wife becomes a widow and your kids become fatherless. try to not give anyone an excuse to do that to your loved ones. There are bad people out there - just try and get home! We agree that there are systemic issues that need to be sorted but don't be stupid enough to think that the time to test whether those issues have been fixed or not is when your are pulled over by a cop. in Kenya it's the kurusha mdomo 'I know my rights..."


Good thinking. Kenya history 101. 1986-1992. When Moi was pushed to the corner he fought back viciously to break the spirit (and often the body) of the soldiers on the front line. Matiba, Rubia and others. Kibaki was watching the duel from a safe point on the fence.

Matiba is in terrible shape at the coast. Kibs, well, we built a new home for him in nyeri, a petrol station, a 700mn office, an attractive retirement package and a place in history books.

yeah realpolitik! ideology is for fools! This is a world where cheetahs (the fastest land animal on the planet) are almost extinct and vultures and hyenas thrive! it doesn't have to be pretty... it just needs to work! working is keeping you alive! long live turncoats! long live opportunists!


Argument from ignorance. Even this 'realpolitik' you're talking about is ideology.

All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Kratos
#97 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 5:10:05 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 1,694
FRM2011 wrote:
Kratos wrote:


You can hide your head in the sand but whatever happens elsewhere affects you here, call it "effects of globalization". The same way the western media sees fit to report on happenings in our tiny third world country called Kenya is the same way we are consuming news from their part of the world.
Not sure what your objective is to blatantly lie that Kibaki didnt say anything about the baragoi killings.....ahh I know you must have thought it happened during Uhuru's term right?

Justice should prevail in Kenya and beyond for the sake of humanity. Justice for Willie, Mwendwa, Muiruri, Alton, Castille and the 5 cops murdered today.

Ngai @kratos I have just seen this. The baragoi massacre was in 2012 and was discussed in a thread here. A key observation was kibaki's silence while he had deployed govt resources after the PCEA women's guild accident in Tanzania. And yes, there was no statement from statehouse.

And I thought we agreed you go slow on this muthamaki worshipping manenos. He ain't that great. Actually he looks set to be the worst performer of the four we have had so far. Kibaki was the best in case you are wondering. But before you get a heart attack, don't worry, he is going to be re-elected.

You got the dumbassery of the voters to be grateful for.


I don't know where you were when Kibaki sent the KDF after the killers ama ni statement from statehouse ndio ulikua unataka tuu, ndio hii? But anyway as always Kibaki will always be the best president and none shall get close to him (can that be categorized as worshiping?), smile

Back to the theme of the thread, like i pointed out earlier justice should prevail for victims of police brutality here in Kenya and everywhere else. People learn from the actions of other people so saying that its none of your business you could not be more wrong.

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
enyands
#98 Posted : Sunday, July 10, 2016 5:18:33 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,301
Location: kenya
tycho wrote:
masukuma wrote:
FRM2011 wrote:
masukuma wrote:
you don't get to come to life again once you are dead... once you are dead.. you are dead. your wife becomes a widow and your kids become fatherless. try to not give anyone an excuse to do that to your loved ones. There are bad people out there - just try and get home! We agree that there are systemic issues that need to be sorted but don't be stupid enough to think that the time to test whether those issues have been fixed or not is when your are pulled over by a cop. in Kenya it's the kurusha mdomo 'I know my rights..."


Good thinking. Kenya history 101. 1986-1992. When Moi was pushed to the corner he fought back viciously to break the spirit (and often the body) of the soldiers on the front line. Matiba, Rubia and others. Kibaki was watching the duel from a safe point on the fence.

Matiba is in terrible shape at the coast. Kibs, well, we built a new home for him in nyeri, a petrol station, a 700mn office, an attractive retirement package and a place in history books.

yeah realpolitik! ideology is for fools! This is a world where cheetahs (the fastest land animal on the planet) are almost extinct and vultures and hyenas thrive! it doesn't have to be pretty... it just needs to work! working is keeping you alive! long live turncoats! long live opportunists!


Argument from ignorance. Even this 'realpolitik' you're talking about is ideology.


Tyco this is for your support but from a different approach .trying to make white people do revolution on their habits.smile smile


tycho
#99 Posted : Monday, July 11, 2016 5:33:56 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
It's sad that so many of us here are so limited in thought that even in a serious issue as this one critical thought will fail, and the most that can be done is arguing from ignorance, making hasty generalizations and making caricatures. Surely I must be in such wrong company here!

What @masukuma and his fellow slaves are not aware of is that this matter isn't restricted either to servile obedience or reckless and negligent action.

Worse still, in the romp of their pseudo-history they have failed to recognize and honor the efforts of those who've suffered discomfort in the past for the sake of many of us here and now who think they enjoy goodies because they are not only solely responsible for what they have, but are more intelligent than those who suffered before.

Yet in all this these foolish slaves, are consistently contradicting themselves and stumbling in their myopia. Why?

1. By claiming that by being 'polite' and 'docile' to law breakers so that they can go home to their wives; they seem not to realize that they are in fact, making sacrifices for these wives and their children. That is, they recognize the effectiveness and need for sacrifice for others, but limit their options to passive servility. Why? Aren't there other alternatives to this like civil suits, petitions, lobbying and the like?

2. By hurrying to satisfy their selfish ends they forget that even if one avoids death by the gun, one is still mortal and quick to achieve frailty. So who, or what would ensure the happiness and safety of their wives and children if not sure and firm social institutions? Yet they neglect the duty of ensuring that they support and leave behind social institutions that are strong enough for others, and even themselves.

3. Our dear but foolish slaves conveniently forget that 'wife', 'property', 'children' are legal entities, and that by subverting the law or abetting such subversions they are in fact subverting all that is legal and hence what they think is theirs.

Once again I blame the 'mass man' mentality that is diletante in study and uncritical in reflection for the apparent arrogance and poverty of action. Even when one should realize in a country like America things aren't so anarchical that there's even a black president in white house and that institutions have a tendency to work despite the set backs seen, our slaves hurry to quote Che or Kimathi as if they are the only ones who know them, and out of context at that!

Any serious student of law, or any lawyer would realize that though for example, a police officer would make unlawful arrest or behave contrary to law, one would be better off playing calm and use all legal knowledge and power to find redress later!

The issue of resisting arrest isn't an option to the wise, but neither is the failure to recognize duty and power to be forgotten or neglected!

I've waited for these slaves to show that they know this but they have failed.

Finally, Matiba, Dedan Kimathi, or even Che Guevara, are not the failures these fools appear to depict them to be. Even if Matiba has no money as he used to have and is ill because of his political agitation, the mere fact that he widened perspectives for our politicians and all citizens is good enough. There's no law that if one is wise and noble and self sacrificing then he should also be rich and famous!

Dedan dared to dream of self government, and courtesy of this Kibaki became. Kibaki stands on Dedan's blood and effort, ditto masukuma and his slave cohort.

Guevara died a poor man, yet at least one achievement he bestowed on future generations was the knowledge and conviction and praxis that excludes servility to a single global power and hence avoid even if for a breath, abuse of power. Even Kenya of today can't compete with Cuba in simple things as health care.

These people that our impetuous slaves foolishly denigrate didn't toil for naught!

When laws are broken, when laws prove insufficient, all responsible and thinking individuals can do something proactive and intelligent, not necessarily by violence, but wit and technique. 'Realpolitik' is about building coalitions through shared solutions, through inspiring others to shun fear and creating mutual benefit and security for all involved. Not selfish and blind and foolish action.

If there's to be any intelligent discussion on such relevant issues let us refrain from simplistic and caricatured arguments. We don't even have to take sides, we may only need to explore, probe, think critically about our experiences.

But woe unto us if we only have slaves and fools for leaders even here in wazua!
enyands
#100 Posted : Monday, July 11, 2016 8:20:23 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/25/2014
Posts: 2,301
Location: kenya
tycho wrote:
It's sad that so many of us here are so limited in thought that even in a serious issue as this one critical thought will fail, and the most that can be done is arguing from ignorance, making hasty generalizations and making caricatures. Surely I must be in such wrong company here!

What @masukuma and his fellow slaves are not aware of is that this matter isn't restricted either to servile obedience or reckless and negligent action.

Worse still, in the romp of their pseudo-history they have failed to recognize and honor the efforts of those who've suffered discomfort in the past for the sake of many of us here and now who think they enjoy goodies because they are not only solely responsible for what they have, but are more intelligent than those who suffered before.

Yet in all this these foolish slaves, are consistently contradicting themselves and stumbling in their myopia. Why?

1. By claiming that by being 'polite' and 'docile' to law breakers so that they can go home to their wives; they seem not to realize that they are in fact, making sacrifices for these wives and their children. That is, they recognize the effectiveness and need for sacrifice for others, but limit their options to passive servility. Why? Aren't there other alternatives to this like civil suits, petitions, lobbying and the like?

2. By hurrying to satisfy their selfish ends they forget that even if one avoids death by the gun, one is still mortal and quick to achieve frailty. So who, or what would ensure the happiness and safety of their wives and children if not sure and firm social institutions? Yet they neglect the duty of ensuring that they support and leave behind social institutions that are strong enough for others, and even themselves.

3. Our dear but foolish slaves conveniently forget that 'wife', 'property', 'children' are legal entities, and that by subverting the law or abetting such subversions they are in fact subverting all that is legal and hence what they think is theirs.

Once again I blame the 'mass man' mentality that is diletante in study and uncritical in reflection for the apparent arrogance and poverty of action. Even when one should realize in a country like America things aren't so anarchical that there's even a black president in white house and that institutions have a tendency to work despite the set backs seen, our slaves hurry to quote Che or Kimathi as if they are the only ones who know them, and out of context at that!

Any serious student of law, or any lawyer would realize that though for example, a police officer would make unlawful arrest or behave contrary to law, one would be better off playing calm and use all legal knowledge and power to find redress later!

The issue of resisting arrest isn't an option to the wise, but neither is the failure to recognize duty and power to be forgotten or neglected!

I've waited for these slaves to show that they know this but they have failed.

Finally, Matiba, Dedan Kimathi, or even Che Guevara, are not the failures these fools appear to depict them to be. Even if Matiba has no money as he used to have and is ill because of his political agitation, the mere fact that he widened perspectives for our politicians and all citizens is good enough. There's no law that if one is wise and noble and self sacrificing then he should also be rich and famous!

Dedan dared to dream of self government, and courtesy of this Kibaki became. Kibaki stands on Dedan's blood and effort, ditto masukuma and his slave cohort.

Guevara died a poor man, yet at least one achievement he bestowed on future generations was the knowledge and conviction and praxis that excludes servility to a single global power and hence avoid even if for a breath, abuse of power. Even Kenya of today can't compete with Cuba in simple things as health care.

These people that our impetuous slaves foolishly denigrate didn't toil for naught!

When laws are broken, when laws prove insufficient, all responsible and thinking individuals can do something proactive and intelligent, not necessarily by violence, but wit and technique. 'Realpolitik' is about building coalitions through shared solutions, through inspiring others to shun fear and creating mutual benefit and security for all involved. Not selfish and blind and foolish action.

If there's to be any intelligent discussion on such relevant issues let us refrain from simplistic and caricatured arguments. We don't even have to take sides, we may only need to explore, probe, think critically about our experiences.

But woe unto us if we only have slaves and fools for leaders even here in wazua!



Tyco ,2 things man . You are a lawyer for a fact I know that or you are a social activist /social worker or something .that's ok . America isn't my home . 6 ft under is too cold . What masukuma is saying is ,it's too cold six foot under where termites are your friends to open your mouth like Martin Luther King . The slaves you leave behind will benefit from your big mouth as you freeze underneath .

I don't know the law jugeon as you do. I'm just a simple mind with more less a provocative thinking as you do . I have "slave" dreams and a copper bullet is the least of it . If you tell me kneel down I'll choose to lie flat. I come from hilly sides of western kenya where a smell of a heap steaming cowdung in the morning means alot to me .

I just want to go home .that's all . I don't want to mention a word "I know my rights" to a police officer who is less learned than me yet he has a copper bullet dream .no no. If I was to change the world I'll do it in a different way but never Rebell a police officer who had ptsd from Iraq ,Afghanistan or somalia. Plz don't quote me wrong I respect your provocative and socio dynamic thinking, but this world we live in don't need that . Do that if you know you have the muscles of Koch brothers or the waltons.

I want to go home and see the heap steaming cowdung everytime i go from nairobi.i respect your thoughts and I'm sure there are people like minded as you are.thats ok and I respect that .at the end of the day my home ,my younger wife and my 2 toddlers mean a lot to me .I prefer them to the cooper bullet shot.im done with this thread .
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