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Kenyatta family to build a City in Ruiri
AlphDoti
#91 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 11:21:11 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
mkenyan wrote:
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
I think everyone including those defending Jomo know that he acquired the land that has made his family rich unprocedurally. The sheer size of the holdings are enough to demonstrate that there is no way Jomo could have accumulated enough cash to buy the land even in his 14 year rule. The value then is irrelevant. Sh.1,000 is small now but then I am sure it was a small fortune. Every politician following this has always tried to get a piece of Kenya for free. Jomo is not here to answer for himself, what he has left behind is just the bitter taste of betrayal from a people who now realise they were played. I bet in hindsight, he would have played this differently.

Its important to reflect on the sheer size of Kenya, we don't need to crowd around Nairobi or lament about stolen land. People are making it big all over the country doing land deals or taking other roads to success avenues. But we also must stick to the truth about what happened. It should never happen again or it should be stopped from happening

Moving on..... If the family develops this property, what will be the effect in Nairobi's real estate, how much can 11K acres affect supply of housing.

concur. nothing useful to add.

Well put @obi Applause
AlphDoti
#92 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 11:29:23 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Swenani wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
Swenani wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
PeterReborn wrote:
Swenani wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
@ Ndugu Swenani

I have also noted that on this subject, you seek to fault Mzee Kenyatta on account of abuse of office - in allocating himself free land as opposed to dispossessing any private land owner of their land.

At least there we have covered some milestone as this has been the years old selling point for demagogues.

My argument is based on those trying to justify that the allocation was okay since no one was disposed off the title and that there were no people living around that area which is a false argument because

Who spoke of Titles!!! - Question is If there were people pushed out of land to pave way for his acquisition of it.

1. Kenyans started having title deeds post independence and up to date most Kenyans do not have title deeds, the few Kenyans who own title deeds are the ones mainly found in Nairobi, central and rift valley.

There is no dispute here

2.Who said people were not living in Ruiru,during colonization,people were rounded off and taken to work in farms which means that people left their homesteads which were later destroyed.

Provide evidence, no gut feeling issues here!

3.Land was owned by a community not by individuals-there were no title deeds.If you go to Kiunga a local is a allowed to farm anywhere since the land belongs to the community and people do not have title deeds and neither does the community have a title deed because the government holds that land for them in trust,It will be an impropriety for someone(especially for a president) to allocate himself land in Kiunga knowing very well that the locals have no title deeds and then ask people to provide credible grounds for impropriety proving that the president has disposed off a private land owner

Yes it would be an impropriety, so was it the case! I wish to know from facts, not relying on folktales


Kenyatta's acquisition of land in Ruiru, Coast and rift valley was unprocedural thus an impropriety

These are mere suppositions


Applause Applause Applause


Dont be escapist brother, we need to discuss if Jomo abused his powers relating to his acquisition of land.
and or if he disposed people of their privately held land (pushing people out)-Read my previous post,you can grab land without disposing off a private land owner e.g Mau forest ,karura forest etc

Aside from Jomo acquiring land, the argument that since land is owned by communally, one (not necessarily Jomo) shouldn't acquire it, is defeatist-Where have I said that communally owned land cannot be acquired? There is a process on how communally owned land is shared-Visit loitoktok to learn how it was done in the ranches

Your forebearers and or their neighbours probably
probably got themselves land for private use - in varying sizes depending on their shrewdness.-I will shrewdness means mischievous meaning it was not procedural


@Ngalaka, Why do you provide evidence that there were no people living in Ruiri before colonization? Donot use gut feelingsmile smile smile

Kenyatta abused his power by allocating himself over 50% of taita taveta and over 800 acres of land in Juja to his family at the expenses of the community members. How many landless people are in Kiambu? Taita taveta yet they belong to the community which was inhabiting that part of the country before colonization came in. Were these people forefathers landless before colonization how did they end up landless?

we have been told up there that people were buying 1.25 acres of land at Kshs 1,000 in 1968 yet mzee got a bargain from the government he was head of at only kshs 7 meaning at close to 6K he paid, he was only entitledto less than 10 acres but ended up get 509 acres.


d'oh! d'oh! d'oh!
Tukigonga wits end tunakubali,..... yaishe!

I mean my position is that I do not know that Jomo used unprocedural means to acquire land, but I am ready to acknowledge any CREDIBLE info so asserting.
On the other hand you @ Swenani, are saying that Jomo did, indeed "steal" land.
Now even a primary school kid knows that the onus is on the one accusing to prove their claims!

My position remains, in the absence of any credible evidence, the the presumption of innocence is the next logical thing.

Relying on what we heard some fellow allege without any meaningful grounds is to.... no, not good enough!


I'm relying from the few available public excerpts from Ndungu report which clearly identified that both president Kenyatta and president Moi misused their powers in allocating themselves land for
1. Urban, State & Ministries’ Land
2.Settlement Schemes & Trust Lands
3.Forestlands, National Parks, Game Reserves, Wetlands, Riparian Reserves & Protected Areas

All the land previously occupied by whitesettles including Ruiru land owned by kenyattas family was either
1.Bought off by individuals from the whitesetlers either individually or through cooperative societies
2. The govt of Kenya through loans bought off/Compensated the settlers using public money thus making it public land which was to be distributed to individuals through settlement schemes

If you do not see anything wrong with how that land was allocated you are the main problem with Kenya and I beg to leave/give up/accept defeat

People like @Ngalaka are the main problems in Kenya. The "goodness" is that we are in this together. Just like me and any other "mwananchi", does not have any share in the Kenyatta land. So we suffer together...
AlphDoti
#93 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 11:32:17 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Ngalaka wrote:
Swenani wrote:
Njung'e wrote:
Kenyans occupy less than a third of their beautiful country. Here we are complaining about an individual or a family for owning land yet we stopped buying land as we are into plots. 50 years on, as someone said here earlier, our great grand children will be here cursing. To to own a plot in Marsabit, Mandera, Moyale or even Mogotio will be a dream.


No one is disputing that but you have to acquire the land procedurally, you cannot use your powers to "steal" land

And that is the proof we are looking for!

@Ngalaka, tell that to your grandchild... It won't be long.
hardwood
#94 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 1:51:47 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
Be warned....

hardwood
#95 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 2:01:25 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
AlphDoti wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
Swenani wrote:
Njung'e wrote:
Kenyans occupy less than a third of their beautiful country. Here we are complaining about an individual or a family for owning land yet we stopped buying land as we are into plots. 50 years on, as someone said here earlier, our great grand children will be here cursing. To to own a plot in Marsabit, Mandera, Moyale or even Mogotio will be a dream.


No one is disputing that but you have to acquire the land procedurally, you cannot use your powers to "steal" land

And that is the proof we are looking for!

@Ngalaka, tell that to your grandchild... It won't be long.


Under the old katiba the president had powers to allocate land to anyone, including himself. How is that illegal or stealing? Do you want to say all those kenyans allocated land in ngata, kitale, chepchoina etc are thieves?
digitek1
#96 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 4:02:22 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/3/2010
Posts: 1,797
Location: Kenya
Fyatu wrote:
Swenani wrote:
Ngalaka wrote:
In the 60’s Kenya’s population was in the region of 10 million or thereabouts. Kenya's land mass was the same as it is today, now against a population of about 45 million.

It follows therefore that anybody who wanted to own land went ahead and owned it, in sizes that they thought was sufficient for their needs. Of course those who wanted to acquire land relinquished by the settlers had to buy it off. Other Land was readily available in Kenya, and most of it unclaimed - read free for occupation, all one needed to do was to settle there and begin cultivating it.

I take the view that Kenyatta committed no wrong by acquiring land – as no one has credibly demonstrated that he disposed them of their land through unlawful means.

The rest is politics – the so called sound bites.


Pointless!

Assuming I had powers to issue title deeds now and went to Turkana,Kiunga or Loitoktok and allocated myself massive land acreage since no one in that area owns a title deed or do not live there is that okay? Will anyone prove that I disposed them of any land?

The government holds land in trust for its citizens,when you as the head of GOK proceed to issue massive acreage of land to yourself just because no one lives or has a title deed to the same land is not okay

Quote:
Three years after Kenya’s independence in 1963, its iconic leader, Mzee Jomo Kenyatta, invoked the powers of his office to award himself a “small” farm in Juja, on the fringes of his Gatundu homeland, an hour north of Nairobi.

The “small” farm was 509 acres. In this spirit of fairness, the grand old man also gave his son, Peter Magana Kenyatta, 200 acres next to his land. Now the two could be neighbours.

At the time, the president was telling millions of landless squatters that the new Government did not have free land to give out. Majority of the squatters had been disinherited and displaced by the colonial government as punishment for supporting the Mau mau.

Leading by example, Kenyatta paid for the two parcels of land he had obtained for himself and his son. The amount he paid was a princely sum of Sh5,472. That’s for some 709 acres! Essentially, he was buying each acre for Sh7.70. At least it wasn’t free.

On July 9, 1966, while executing the powers vested in his office, Kenyatta officially transferred the land to himself. The title deed reads in part: ”The President of the Republic of Kenya on behalf of the Government of the Republic of Kenya grant unto His Excellency Mzee Jomo Kenyatta, President of Kenya (Post Office Box 125 Ruiru) the piece of land situated in Nairobi, containing 509 acres Land Reference Number 11493…”
The only condition the “Government” gave to Kenyatta was that the land be used for agricultural purposes only.

Kenyatta would repeat the script on November 14, 1966, and sign off some 200 acres to his beloved son Magana. Documents relating to Magana’s land indicate that the title was freehold. He shared the postal address with his father.


Citing your source @ ndugu Swenani, it is evident the old man actually paid for the land and did not use his powers to grab/allocate himself the land for free. As for people settling on the land, there is no anthropological evidence. Indeed, the land was one massive farm/ranch owned my Macmillan. Tales are told how former US president Rosevelt and other wabeberu used to frequent the ranch for game hunting (a premium luxury up until today not in Kenya but in counties with more wildlife like SA, Zim, Namibia and Botswana). People used to live in Juja. This people were actually his(Macmillan) farm workers from different parts of Kenya and not only folks from central.I concur with @brother Ngalaka that politicking and obsession with politics by the common mwananchi in Kenya has systematically left the common man more poorer.Lamentations such as "Serikali Saidia" and the belief that there is going to come a messiah who will repossess property and re-distribute will only lead to more pooer and more frustrated mwananchi. So as an educated middle class wazuan, i have made a deliberate decision to stop being obsessed with politics of a certain community or certain individuals accumulated wealth and my people or my ancestors were cheated etc, and start accumulating no matter how small or modestly

tsunamiLaughing out loudly
I may be wrong..but then I could be right
kiash
#97 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 4:37:21 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 4/27/2010
Posts: 951
Location: Nyumbani
Alba wrote:
Jomo Kenyatta lived, worked and studied in the UK for 15 years. So he had every opportunity to learn from a mature democracy how to run a country and a great city (London).

As the founding father of Kenya, He could have taken those lessons and applied them to Kenya especially Nairobi
. There was an opportunity to learn from the mistakes London had made and copy the good things they had done.

By the time the Nairobi master plan was created around 1948, the city was basically a blank slate. Population was less than 100,000. Kenyatta could have set aside room for roads, hospitals, fire brigades, water sources etc. The city could have expanded in an orderly fashion.

Instead of using his knowledge for the good of the country, he went about selfishly grabbing every piece of land in site and encouraging his cohorts to do the same.

As someone pointed out above, much of the land he grabbed is land that should have been owned by the government and should have been used to build or expand much needed infrastructure and amenities.

Nairobi is a mess now with a population of 3 million. If you think traffic, water shortages or power outages are bad now, then wait ten years from now when the population reaches 5 million.

There is nothing commendable about what Kenyatta did. Most of our grandfathers did not have the inside knowledge that he had nor the power to grab any piece of land they wanted.



Don't say/see Kenyatta. There was a time i think during Kibaki's reign the whole cabinet was full of ministers who did their studies abroad. Yet some achieved nothing in their ministries and they never applied what they learnt abroad.
There were people like kina Biwott, look at baba,Kibaki himself, Uhunye,I think the problem is the people.For those who are majuu , go home and try saying such and such a thing works in US or Europe utaona. These same people are here in Wazua saying this is Kenya, we do things like this, your ideas can't work bla bla bla

Kenyatta must heve went through the same so he finally decided to get for himself and his family.
Lolest!
#98 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 6:28:41 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
hardwood wrote:
Be warned....


This guy is a Kabogo critic. Arrested in Kiambu, remanded in Shimo la Tewa & charged in Msa
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
innairobi
#99 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 7:40:56 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/2/2010
Posts: 845
Hundreds of thousands of acres would have cost hundreds of millions of shillings in those days. Hundreds of millions in the 60s and 70s is hundreds of billions today. Jomo had nowhere near that kind of money then or income that could service that kind of debt. Whichever way you cut it, how Jomo acquired the vast tracts of land is obviously questionable.
All my friends are heathens, take it slow. Wait for them to ask you who you know. Please don't make any sudden moves.
hardwood
#100 Posted : Saturday, January 23, 2016 9:56:56 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/28/2015
Posts: 9,562
Location: Rodi Kopany, Homa Bay
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