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CBK's CBR shocker @ 16.5% - Playing Serious Hard Ball?!
guru267
#91 Posted : Wednesday, November 02, 2011 9:00:42 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
Scubidu wrote:
guru267 wrote:
the deal wrote:
Lets debate Keynes and Friedman...then discussions on Wazua would have evolved!


Any student of economics would know that these mens theories only hold in DEVELOPED ECONOMIES..


Explain why Keynes is not relevant in emerging and frontier markets?


Our inflation is hardly ever demand driven..

The inflation is usually caused by inadequate food supply, high world fuel prices, inefficient power supply, and rising import prices caused by a weak shilling, inappropriate technology, and monopoly power.. These are mostly problems with the supply chain

Simply put Keynesian economics cannot solve these problems..

Raising the bank rate and cash ratio will not reduce fuel prices, neither will it bring rain for planting, nor will it build geothermal dams and it will definitely not improve the situation in europe.. Inflation hence remains high..

What it will do though is discourage investment and increase downsizing in firns and the rates of default on loans.. Unemployment thus starts to rise..

Keynesian economics for kenya results in inflation remaining high while at the same time manufacturing unemployment hence stagflation arises..

Developed countries have no problems with supply issues so inflation is almost always demand driven and they can use keynes theory..
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
josiah33
#92 Posted : Wednesday, November 02, 2011 9:15:15 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
how farther down does prof. Ndung'u expect to reduce the rate of inflation by hiking the CBR rate to 16.5% from 11%?
Scubidu
#93 Posted : Thursday, November 03, 2011 12:25:38 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Liv wrote:
I think the CBK did not have any other option given the circumstances and facts.

1) Due to mainly external factors (uprising in North Africa, economic crisis in Europe)....there was UNCERTAINTY in the world markets. When this happens every player runs for the Yen, the swiss franc and the dollar.

2) High demand for the dollar meant that all net importer countries will be adversely affected as they have to compete for the dollars with everyone else and yet they do not have much dollar proceeds as net importers. That is where Kenya is. We are importing goods worth $900B and exporting $400B per year. The result is we have to cough more shillings to buy the same dollar required by all other countries.

3) Our inflation has been caused mainly by the appreciation of the dollar against the shilling. Of course we had more than normal demand for dollars due to drought and other production factors and we had to buy food.

4) Government had to get the huge suppliers of dollars to send dollars here. This was to be done by either

i) Increasing exports ...(This is hard.... how do you increase your tea or coffee production overnight? or even bring more tourists?..... NOT POSSIBLE

ii) borrowing dollars to increase dollar supply in the country. This is what the govt has done.....borrow from IMF but this is limited supply....also with strings attached.

5) killing 2 birds with one stone: but with consequences:
CBK had one tool to deal with inflation but also address the exchange rate. i.e. Raising the interest rate.... how does it work?

i) raising the interest rates will attract international investors....where else can they earn above 15% pa?.....so they will bring their dollars and buy kshs to earn 15%....this will result in high dollar supply....since we cannot sell more coffee, tea, etc now...we would rather sell kshs...at interest...lol

ii) At 15% and above interest rates most banks, individuals and investors will take their money to Prof Ndungu to keep for them. so eventually no one will have any money on them.....and so you cannot go round buying land and other things at any price you like as you have no money....or you have to wait until prof Ndungu gives it back to you..... that way INFLATION IS KILLED.

If you were the signatory of the Kenya shilling notes what would you do?


Interesting points. The great thing about most central banks is that they are pretty predictable during times of crisis. CBK told us what they were going to do long ago, but, we didn’t know the timing.

I recently read a CBK discussion paper dated May 2011 (ts somewhere on the CBK website). On page 26 it says the following “The second option for the CBK is to assume that the supply shock is equivalent to a demand shock and neutralize the initial impact on inflation using contractionary monetary policy… practically the reduction in output will come as a result of a substantial increase in the cost of credit. Modern central banks advocated for this solution when rising food and energy prices continue over a longer period, contributing to indirect or second-round effects, which affect the wage and price-setting behavior of businesses and households. Additionally, this option is appropriate when the supply shocks unanchor inflation expectations over the policy horizon. In this situation the central bank takes decisive action and strong anti-inflation pronouncements”.

The document goes on further to say “The appropriate response is that if the supply shocks are transitory and/or limited in scale, they do not require an immediate action by the CBK. If the shocks are strong, which may bring about a permanent rise in inflation expectation, and in turn a further increase in inflation due to building wage pressure, CBK should contain secondary effects of the supply shock (second-round effects)”.

They’ve simply followed what they intended to do if things got out of hand and they've let you know this as far back as May 2011.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Scubidu
#94 Posted : Thursday, November 03, 2011 12:28:40 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
I like to ask simple logical questions which require similar simple logical answers.

- What is the current US federal reserve rate?
- does it ever go to 16.5%?
- has the federal chairman ever increased his rates by 9.5% in a span of 30 days?

I could ask the same questions about any other developed or well managed economy.

So why is our good old prof/gava taking this illogical route.

Is it that in Kenya the gava never ever considers our plans?

Why can't simple deppreciation of the kenya shilling price people out of imported goods and lead to a slow down in demand.


Jedi Knight: Why can’t a simple depreciation work? Yoda: Because we passed that stage long ago Laughing out loudly

We’re not like the US in that we can’t borrow tonnes of money merely because we hold the global reserve currency. And if you borrow somebody else’s money you’d rather pay them 0%, so US Fed can’t raise Fed rate to 16.5% because they’d default. I recently read a book called “Bailouts or Bail-Ins” written by a chap called Nouriel Roubini and documents how governments handled crisis (in places like Mexico, Argentina, Russia and Far East Asia).

The chapter on Exchange Rate Crises and Capital Controls says the following “The government has four basic options to reequilibrate demand for domestic and foreign assets. First, the sovereign can let the exchange rate fail-with potentially devastating consequences for those who have borrowed in foreign currency. Second, the sovereign can intervene in the foreign exchange market, by selling either its reserves or domestic debt denominated in foreign currency. Third, the Central Bank can raise short-term interest rates to make domestic currency-denominated financial assets more attractive than foreign assets (assuming that domestic debtors can afford to pay the higher interest rates). Finally, the government can impose capital and exchange controls that prohibit the purchase of foreign exchange with domestic financial assets”.

I s**t you not but that’s exactly what it says on page 228. To recap what we’ve gone through this year.

Governor let exchange rate fall by doing nothing, imports remain unchanged and the currency tanked. He knew we were heading into a crisis that’s why we discussed the ECF (for BOP support) as early as November 2010. He knew that the record fiscal budget deficits in 2010 and 2011 are dangerous but only if a private sector boom begins. So he started sell fx reserves but wouldn’t tell peeps how much… cos he didn’t much to sell. Then talked about issuing a Eurobond (guys knew he was bluffing). So he started to raise Tbill rates but even that wasn’t enough to go long KES… he could pay for the higher interest rates by rejecting long end bond bids but accepting high short yield bids. Then in his frustration he imposed stricter controls on foreign fx flows, to basically make it harder for guys to fund their positions.

All in all, everything short of capital controls has been tried. The only next logical step to contract economic growth with higher interest rates to attract savings (dollar inflows). That’s how most overvalued currency are defended.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Scubidu
#95 Posted : Thursday, November 03, 2011 12:32:34 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
Scubidu wrote:
guru267 wrote:
the deal wrote:
Lets debate Keynes and Friedman...then discussions on Wazua would have evolved!


Any student of economics would know that these mens theories only hold in DEVELOPED ECONOMIES..


Explain why Keynes is not relevant in emerging and frontier markets?


Our inflation is hardly ever demand driven..

The inflation is usually caused by inadequate food supply, high world fuel prices, inefficient power supply, and rising import prices caused by a weak shilling, inappropriate technology, and monopoly power.. These are mostly problems with the supply chain

Simply put Keynesian economics cannot solve these problems..

Raising the bank rate and cash ratio will not reduce fuel prices, neither will it bring rain for planting, nor will it build geothermal dams and it will definitely not improve the situation in europe.. Inflation hence remains high..

What it will do though is discourage investment and increase downsizing in firns and the rates of default on loans.. Unemployment thus starts to rise..

Keynesian economics for kenya results in inflation remaining high while at the same time manufacturing unemployment hence stagflation arises..

Developed countries have no problems with supply issues so inflation is almost always demand driven and they can use keynes theory..


The first thing I think of when I hear Keynes is deficit spending. It’s very unlucky that Kenya’s in a perfect storm purely because of the drought, but indeed the governor still acknowledges that it’s supply side shocks ailing the economy. Deficit spending implies the need to import especially for a country like ours that lacks certain key resources. According to IMF Kenya is one of the worst in terms of external shocks where a 1% increase in world food price results in a 1.1% in domestic prices. Even Uganda isn’t that bad. Most unfortunate for us.

Look at the moral hazard of the Gauranteed Loans Act, CAP 467. It allows KenGen to take loans at subsidized rates to fund legitimate energy infrastructure. So the BOP equation is balanced, KenGen imports (debit) whatever and Japan finances it (credit). But the current account records a higher deficit. If Kengen was investing in clean energy I’d be happy, but all they did was install a thermal generator before IPPs increased capacity on their thermal generators. I wish LTWP was helped in this way. Then KenGen hides forex losses in shareholders’ funds one year then moves yen loan denominated losses to receivables the next. They’re now owed the money!

So why do we export? To import! Comparative advantage. Something interesting Peter Schiff said in his talk to bankers (watch below).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6G3Qefbt0n4

Yes raising interest rates will slow down investments, economic growth, but who’s to say we’re not already overinvested as a country (at this point in time). Have you seen our savings rate? So if we are investing so much money then why is there no growth in exports. We hoping that services (tourism) and remittances will help out but they’re aren’t growing fast enough. So IMF funds are necessary to bridge the gap because we have no support to continue financing the deficit.

Inflation will decline as a function of the exchange rate appreciation but the most important thing here is that inflation expectations will also change (that’s why he’s taken the measures he’s taken). As it is unemployment was also gonna rise if the shilling hit 120 (coupled with a lovely debt and banking crisis). The governor is a Keynesian and he’d agree with you completely, but, this time he’ll say he’s a psychologist now not an economist.

A private sector recovery started the problem so Gov must kill the private sector. According to Wiki "Keynesian economics argues that private sector decisions sometimes lead to inefficient macroeconomic outcomes and, therefore, advocates active policy responses by the public sector, including monetary policy actions by the central bank and fiscal policy actions by the government to stabilize output over the business cycle".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
kizee1
#96 Posted : Thursday, November 03, 2011 8:41:59 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/29/2010
Posts: 679
Location: nairobi
Scubidu wrote:
kizee1 wrote:
the deal wrote:
Every IMF Package comes with its own austerity...the IMF is in Town....Kenyans wake up and smell the coffe...the IMF way is a highway to ruin!!!



SPOT FREAKING ON! the shit hit the fan the minute uhuru accepted to take their SSF(strategic shock facility) in 2009! is this why kimunya had to go? uhuru is the best guy to have as a finmin!...guy has taken usd 750mio! during kimunyas time we borrowed zilch from IMF and we were charting ou own course!


The focus was on infrastructure from 2008 onwards... building it through public spending. Because we failed to do the Eurobond in 2007 (under Kimunya) the only recourse was to fund the current account with IMF funds. Don't you agree?



i dont agree the SSF wasnt even for budgetary support, why must we keep running unnecessary deficits??
Obi 1 Kanobi
#97 Posted : Thursday, November 03, 2011 12:52:37 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/23/2008
Posts: 3,017
@ Scubidu

Thanks for the insight. However I still insist that your answer does not apply to our economy. As most posts above have stated

May be a better question should be,

WHAT IS AILING THE KENYAN ECONOMY. If we can answer this question, then may be we can better analyse the responses takne by Le'prof.

Increase in interest rates is meant to channell funds away from the private sector to the public sector (govt). However, in our case the public sector is very wasteful and are the reason we are in this position. they are incapable of keeping up with the private sector growth and in many cases, their input retards the growth.
"The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
Scubidu
#98 Posted : Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:51:06 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
kizee1 wrote:
Scubidu wrote:
kizee1 wrote:
the deal wrote:
Every IMF Package comes with its own austerity...the IMF is in Town....Kenyans wake up and smell the coffe...the IMF way is a highway to ruin!!!



SPOT FREAKING ON! the shit hit the fan the minute uhuru accepted to take their SSF(strategic shock facility) in 2009! is this why kimunya had to go? uhuru is the best guy to have as a finmin!...guy has taken usd 750mio! during kimunyas time we borrowed zilch from IMF and we were charting ou own course!


The focus was on infrastructure from 2008 onwards... building it through public spending. Because we failed to do the Eurobond in 2007 (under Kimunya) the only recourse was to fund the current account with IMF funds. Don't you agree?



i dont agree the SSF wasnt even for budgetary support, why must we keep running unnecessary deficits??


i see your point.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Scubidu
#99 Posted : Thursday, November 03, 2011 2:57:20 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
Obi 1 Kanobi wrote:
@ Scubidu

Thanks for the insight. However I still insist that your answer does not apply to our economy. As most posts above have stated

May be a better question should be,

WHAT IS AILING THE KENYAN ECONOMY. If we can answer this question, then may be we can better analyse the responses takne by Le'prof.

Increase in interest rates is meant to channell funds away from the private sector to the public sector (govt). However, in our case the public sector is very wasteful and are the reason we are in this position. they are incapable of keeping up with the private sector growth and in many cases, their input retards the growth.


Yes... many posts have stated many things... which do you think has been most accurate? How about we start there.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
FUNKY
#100 Posted : Thursday, November 03, 2011 3:14:54 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 4/30/2010
Posts: 1,635
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