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The abortion Debate
famooz
#1 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:09:02 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,047
I know this is very controversial esp. because i am of the Faith.BUT I think we have heard a lot about abortion( esp. because of Katiba) to last us a lifetime. It is pretentious to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that we do not have a problem. Even in more developed countries, there are pro- life and pro- choice groups.

However pro- life groups in these more developed countries are not religious entities, so when they talk about right to life, they move the discussion forward by seeking to address the root cause of the problem.-Why do women seek abortion. Most of these women will say they just cannot afford to raise a child. So the question begs, why then didn’t they use protection ?

How about giving the masses some real solutions?

Improve adoption laws
Promote both abstinence and protection/condoms

But in the church, we talk of abstinence as the only way- it is a charade. I am probably voicing my own frustrations as a Christian, knowing the real solutions cannot and do NOT come in shouting No to abortions- may be there is a different way of doing things?



mukhamba!
#2 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:15:50 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/19/2010
Posts: 227
Location: Nairobi
Like one person said, if you are against abortion(i do not want to say the church) give these people an alternative. Like, if you keep the baby we can take him/her and put in a home or you can put him/her up for adoption. No one gives these women(many underage) an option so they see abortion as the simplest option.
kenyanbeef
#3 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 12:46:23 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/24/2009
Posts: 273
No woman will find out they are pregnant n run to have an abortion because it is 'legal'.Shame on you

No woman will now strut to a hospital oozing confidence to procure an abortion because it is 'legal'.Shame on you

No woman today who needed to have a pregnancy terminated failed to do so because it was 'illegal'. Sad thing is some lose their lives in the process.

Tafakari hayo.
masukuma
#4 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:09:44 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
@mukhamba, I agree totally. we need options. kenyabeef - unless you have traveled to the future or a relative of Nguata Francis. you cannot confidently assert that
kenyanbeef wrote:

No woman will find out they are pregnant n run to have an abortion because it is 'legal'.

No woman will now strut to a hospital oozing confidence to procure an abortion because it is 'legal'.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
famooz
#5 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:35:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,047
@ kenyabeef,yes a woman would seek abortion if readily available,but you missed the point of this thread altogether.......
cruso
#6 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 1:58:18 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/13/2010
Posts: 33
Location: nairobi
@famooz, there are a number of children homes that are always willing to take the so called unwanted babies, you only need to check them out. There are also christian organisations which take care of what they call crisis pregnancies. So the solutions are there but many churches do not heavily invest in such. May be if they do, we would be talking of a different story now.

As we were discussing this very matter with my old man (who doesn't use condoms), he possed a question to me and I was puzzled...it went like this...

''Youngman, if its true that the man's sperm determines whether the baby will be a boy or a girl, who told you that using condoms is not abortion?''

Now that is 'tafakari ya babu' what do you make of that?
RELIGION = MAN LOOKING FOR GOD AND SALVATION = GOD LOOKING FOR MAN.
mukhamba!
#7 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:07:44 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/19/2010
Posts: 227
Location: Nairobi
"Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion

Cruso..notice how they say "expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo"
mukhamba!
#8 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:11:09 PM
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Posts: 227
Location: Nairobi
Clearly you need both a sperm and an ovary to make an embryo
famooz
#9 Posted : Thursday, May 13, 2010 2:21:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,047
@ cruso ,So using a condom is tantamount to abortion? retrogressive nikitafakari !!!
cruso
#10 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 6:40:42 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/13/2010
Posts: 33
Location: nairobi
@mukhamba! n @famooz...I hear you clearly, these are moral issues and everyone will always look at them from their own moral background. I think the big question is, can we as a society live with a certain understanding, say, abortion can only take place after the sperm n the ovary have fussed n there is an embryo. Anything before that cannot be termed as abortion. But as I said, this is a moral issue and therefore encompasses beliefs, emmotions, values and perceptions.
RELIGION = MAN LOOKING FOR GOD AND SALVATION = GOD LOOKING FOR MAN.
chepkel
#11 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 9:07:34 AM
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Joined: 4/6/2010
Posts: 741
Location: Nairobi
From my observation and interaction with other young women, the main reason for considering abortion is not really "economic". (but i can be corrected). It is actually Social. When a form 4 girls gets pregnant, her first thoughts will be, what will my parents say?? What will my friends think?? I am So young i cannot have a baby?!! That is why abortion is not only for the poor but for the well off in the society. In fact many poor people have kids as compared to the rich or middle class people. Girls are scared of what society think and tainting their names, and thinking nobody would want to be her friend even if most of her peers are having sex that abortion seems like a very good idea.Secondly, stupid boyfriends who do not want to take responsibility drive these poor girls into abortion clinics. The girl may be thinking at the back of her mind that what she is doing is wrong but will be pushed into it anyway and may not have the courage to stand up for herself. Sometimes, the parents may push the poor girls into having an abortion because they do not want to be a laughing stoke in the community. I remember a girl at my high school being kicked out of school because she was pregnant. That is very sad.Times have changed and we do not judge girls too harshly anymore.
Anyway, these days many women are courageous enough to become single mothers and embrace motherhood at an early age. Nevertheless, we should encourage education and tolerance in our society. Imagine if a high school girl could have a place where she could confess her predicament like a clinic or youth centre. She could get advice and encouragement. In addition, she can get a counselor to go home with her and help her break the news to her parents.
We should insist on our children to abstain. I strongly believe that a child under 18 years of age has no business having sex at all. Huyo bado ni mtoto kabisa. Abstinence must be drilled into their heads. Under 18 has no business having sex at all. And as parents we must really talk to our children about sex and the importance of waiting. Seriously mtoto anatakia nini hii mambo. Sadly, there are many who lack guidance and also become an influence to others. So a child must know everything about sex from contraceptives to condoms to HIV/AIDS and STDs. The ones in campus are a different case alltogether.
masukuma
#12 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 10:35:01 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
@chepkel, i think most abortions are medical fixes to social problems.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
Wendz
#13 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 10:58:55 AM
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Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
@Masukuma

I totally agree with you.
malimingi
#14 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 11:02:32 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 89
@masukuma and wendz and there is nothing wrong with fixing social problems with medical interventions as part of a whole range of solutions.
The Real Shaft
#15 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 11:12:52 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/19/2008
Posts: 839
a large portion of those who procure abortions...

are not doing it for medical reasons...

the root of the matter...

unprotected and unsafe sex...

so in this equation...

what remains constant is....

sex...

what are variables are...

the unprotected-ness...

and unsafe-ness...

of this constant..... sex.....

so looking for solutions....

a) vibrant education on matters sexual....

to both boy and girl-child.....

b) provision of condom clinics....

where kila mundu....

is shown how to walk in the rain....

c) the reinstatement of the Affiliation Act...

where the man has to prove Billie Jean sio wake

I'm the real Massey Fergu...... Shut your mouth....
Wendz
#16 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 11:23:32 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
malimingi wrote:
@masukuma and wendz and there is nothing wrong with fixing social problems with medical interventions as part of a whole range of solutions.


True... works well for most things... but for the topic at hand, i do have a problem with that because to me, abortion is murder... whether we are reading on the same page on this particular issue is a topic for another day.
chepkel
#17 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 12:02:44 PM
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Joined: 4/6/2010
Posts: 741
Location: Nairobi
@masukuma, that is exactly what am saying.
chepkel
#18 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 12:11:40 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/6/2010
Posts: 741
Location: Nairobi
Halafu, i totally disagree with people who are arguing that the abortion clause in this proposed new constitution will increase the number of abortions or give people an excuse to procure an abortion.
If one wants to do an abortion, then they would probably do it at 3 months or below. When you go to a gynecologist and sit amongst the other patients no one will know what your problem is. At this time the tummy is still very flat. You'll walk in and out in 15 minutes and you will be baby free. Now why the hell should i use an excuse of a medical emergency and risk being under scrutiny when i can just do it privately and quietly. I do not think doctors or quacks would risk exposure by using the law. But i dont know. Maybe it can happen.
famooz
#19 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 12:22:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,047
@ Chepkel,i agree with you but you narrow it down to school girls,but women of all age groups are affected.

Yeah,we could urge that abortion is a medical solution to a social issue.where the social issue here is what? stigma? raging hormones? or just the act of sex?

@ Real Shaft,i agree with you,the constant here is sex and protection or lack thereof etc are the variables probably leading to STIs and HIV?It reminds me of my friends shock and disbelief when she and her hubby realized that their first born daughter was pregnant- she was already in UNI pursuing one of the envied professions.....all this girl has grown up hearing was about abstinence had told .......just food for thought.

I must add she went ahead and gave birth and went back to UNI........but life was not the same.




cruso
#20 Posted : Friday, May 14, 2010 2:15:20 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/13/2010
Posts: 33
Location: nairobi
@all I always shadder when I hear such a story that a woman has to procure an abortion in order for her to go on with her education or career for that matter. If you are able to be pregnant it means you are no longer a kid, besides, how many people have jammed education institutions in this country and persuing their dream careers yet they have children and families running at the same time? I believe we should all tear down the social STIGMA veil concerning these issues and may be things will change. ...my two cents...
RELIGION = MAN LOOKING FOR GOD AND SALVATION = GOD LOOKING FOR MAN.
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