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Cytonn Investments
KulaRaha
#1201 Posted : Monday, June 21, 2021 10:58:22 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
In 2016, I have an email from them offering me 18% for 1 year fixed funds, while the prevailing t bill rate for the same tenor was between 11 and 12%.

I think they were a ponzi from the start, its just people did not catch onto it soon enough.

Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
mv_ufanisi
#1202 Posted : Monday, June 21, 2021 11:41:09 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/15/2010
Posts: 625
This is one of those kind of investments where the people running the show will win regardless of whatever happens.
It's a game where at the flip of a coin,
Heads I win, Tails you Lose.
It's actually quite similar to how the guys at Centum were earning huge bonuses while shareholders have lost heavily. The management faces no downside when shit hits the fan but claims bonuses based on unrealized real estate "appreciation". When the real estate takes a hit of course they do not pay back the bonuses and the carry that they earned in the hey days. Lack of skin in the game by the management should be a huge warning signal to any serious investor.
sparkly
#1203 Posted : Monday, June 21, 2021 9:11:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
KulaRaha wrote:
In 2016, I have an email from them offering me 18% for 1 year fixed funds, while the prevailing t bill rate for the same tenor was between 11 and 12%.

I think they were a ponzi from the start, its just people did not catch onto it soon enough.



Chase Bank was offering up to 24%-26% on fixed deposits of 6 -12 months at that time. They simply took the money to Chase Bank took the 6%-8% margin plus a management fee of 2%.
Life is short. Live passionately.
VituVingiSana
#1204 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 1:13:52 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,038
Location: Nairobi
mv_ufanisi wrote:
This is one of those kind of investments where the people running the show will win regardless of whatever happens.
It's a game where at the flip of a coin,
Heads I win, Tails you Lose.
It's actually quite similar to how the guys at Centum were earning huge bonuses while shareholders have lost heavily. The management faces no downside when shit hits the fan but claims bonuses based on unrealized real estate "appreciation". When the real estate takes a hit of course they do not pay back the bonuses and the carry that they earned in the hey days. Lack of skin in the game by the management should be a huge warning signal to any serious investor.

Not defending the huge bonuses at Centum but if you read (not skim) the Annual Report, the compensation is based on "cash returns" not "unrealized gains" though I may be mistaken.

Perhaps with DJ CK's ill-health and death the results have not been released yet but Centum has until 30th June. Let's see what they present.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
tony stark
#1205 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 1:49:26 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
VituVingiSana wrote:
As I eat my popcorn let's see the lay of the land.

@paulkimani seems to have been vindicated but @poundfoolish, @tonystark and @sparkly are putting up a fight.

I agree that Cytonn didn't start out as a Ponzi scheme but some unlucky events eg fiscal indiscipline of GoK and COVID19 has played a huge role in slowing down sales and construction of the real estate projects.

Good luck to the investors in CHYS. Perhaps over time they will recover their principal but the 14-20% interest they were promised may be a bridge too far.

Another option is to take the completed apartments in lieu of the cash. Yes, it might involve a haircut but at least you have an asset in hand you can rent out.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
I am not putting up a fight but I am stuck in cytonn with all this COVID manenos. I am not sure I have lost money in Cytonn but i have liquidated some stocks and lost some of money.

I am being very objective about Cytonn, but honestly time will tell if am crying on Wazua or laughing my way to the bank. Crying like paul Kimani or making a run for the cash doesn't help me now.

The option of an apartment is thankfully an option available as an out. Maybe if the price of the apartment is sweetened further for CHYS investors ...Drool Drool Drool Drool

Time will tell.
Swenani
#1206 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 2:14:24 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,236
Location: Vacuum
While I pulled out of Cytonn when they started selling caps and t-shirts. I believe cytoon is not a ponzi, Cytonn just happens to be cash strapped primarily caused by how they structured their investments to mature in 1 year yet the funds were being deployed in RE whose investment horizon should be more than 3 years for one o build and find clients.

They should have required a min investment of 5 years to enable them build and sell the houses.

If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
Rollout
#1207 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 2:33:44 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/26/2011
Posts: 759
tony stark wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
As I eat my popcorn let's see the lay of the land.

@paulkimani seems to have been vindicated but @poundfoolish, @tonystark and @sparkly are putting up a fight.

I agree that Cytonn didn't start out as a Ponzi scheme but some unlucky events eg fiscal indiscipline of GoK and COVID19 has played a huge role in slowing down sales and construction of the real estate projects.

Good luck to the investors in CHYS. Perhaps over time they will recover their principal but the 14-20% interest they were promised may be a bridge too far.

Another option is to take the completed apartments in lieu of the cash. Yes, it might involve a haircut but at least you have an asset in hand you can rent out.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
I am not putting up a fight but I am stuck in cytonn with all this COVID manenos. I am not sure I have lost money in Cytonn but i have liquidated some stocks and lost some of money.

I am being very objective about Cytonn, but honestly time will tell if am crying on Wazua or laughing my way to the bank. Crying like paul Kimani or making a run for the cash doesn't help me now.

The option of an apartment is thankfully an option available as an out. Maybe if the price of the apartment is sweetened further for CHYS investors ...Drool Drool Drool Drool

Time will tell.


My main concern is the fact that Cytonn hasn't secured short term bridge financing or even sell equity stake to a global private equity.

Right now there is so much money is PE space that Cytonn shouldn't have to go to courts, delay payments and have their brand tarnished.

Investing is based on trust and brand, once that's tarnished, it is hard to get it cleaned. Either Cytonn.

1. Doesn't have the foresight to comprehend
2. Or doesn't want to open their books for diligence need in order to get the capital

Both are not good signs.
poundfoolish
#1208 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 5:00:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi

I discovered most people here dont have inside scoops and are not as smart as they write. (not refering to you though)

But for your information. They have turned down offers.. starting from local ones.
Hizi kelele za kina Paul sio za bure

Rollout wrote:
tony stark wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
As I eat my popcorn let's see the lay of the land.

@paulkimani seems to have been vindicated but @poundfoolish, @tonystark and @sparkly are putting up a fight.

I agree that Cytonn didn't start out as a Ponzi scheme but some unlucky events eg fiscal indiscipline of GoK and COVID19 has played a huge role in slowing down sales and construction of the real estate projects.

Good luck to the investors in CHYS. Perhaps over time they will recover their principal but the 14-20% interest they were promised may be a bridge too far.

Another option is to take the completed apartments in lieu of the cash. Yes, it might involve a haircut but at least you have an asset in hand you can rent out.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
I am not putting up a fight but I am stuck in cytonn with all this COVID manenos. I am not sure I have lost money in Cytonn but i have liquidated some stocks and lost some of money.

I am being very objective about Cytonn, but honestly time will tell if am crying on Wazua or laughing my way to the bank. Crying like paul Kimani or making a run for the cash doesn't help me now.

The option of an apartment is thankfully an option available as an out. Maybe if the price of the apartment is sweetened further for CHYS investors ...Drool Drool Drool Drool

Time will tell.


My main concern is the fact that Cytonn hasn't secured short term bridge financing or even sell equity stake to a global private equity.

Right now there is so much money is PE space that Cytonn shouldn't have to go to courts, delay payments and have their brand tarnished.

Investing is based on trust and brand, once that's tarnished, it is hard to get it cleaned. Either Cytonn.

1. Doesn't have the foresight to comprehend
2. Or doesn't want to open their books for diligence need in order to get the capital

Both are not good signs.

poundfoolish
#1209 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 5:07:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
repost
VituVingiSana
#1210 Posted : Tuesday, June 22, 2021 10:05:44 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,038
Location: Nairobi
sparkly wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
In 2016, I have an email from them offering me 18% for 1 year fixed funds, while the prevailing t bill rate for the same tenor was between 11 and 12%.

I think they were a ponzi from the start, its just people did not catch onto it soon enough.



Chase Bank was offering up to 24%-26% on fixed deposits of 6 -12 months at that time. They simply took the money to Chase Bank took the 6%-8% margin plus a management fee of 2%.
And the whole house of cards came crumbling down.
Wow! When 1year T-Bills were 12%, Chase was offering 24%??? That was definitely not sustainable.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
mv_ufanisi
#1211 Posted : Wednesday, June 23, 2021 1:03:07 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/15/2010
Posts: 625
VituVingiSana wrote:
mv_ufanisi wrote:
This is one of those kind of investments where the people running the show will win regardless of whatever happens.
It's a game where at the flip of a coin,
Heads I win, Tails you Lose.
It's actually quite similar to how the guys at Centum were earning huge bonuses while shareholders have lost heavily. The management faces no downside when shit hits the fan but claims bonuses based on unrealized real estate "appreciation". When the real estate takes a hit of course they do not pay back the bonuses and the carry that they earned in the hey days. Lack of skin in the game by the management should be a huge warning signal to any serious investor.

Not defending the huge bonuses at Centum but if you read (not skim) the Annual Report, the compensation is based on "cash returns" not "unrealized gains" though I may be mistaken.

Perhaps with DJ CK's ill-health and death the results have not been released yet but Centum has until 30th June. Let's see what they present.


All I'm saying is that if the returns available to management are materially different from the ones available to shareholders, then DO NOT invest.

In Centum, shareholders have seen a steady drop in the price of their equity while during the same period, management earned huge bonuses.

The only sensible compensation mechanism to do would have been to tie bonuses to the performance of the Centum share so as to ensure that management and shareholders are always in the same boat.

It's that simple.

Even better would be to ensure that management takes a cut when the share goes into loss territory just like shareholders do.

That way, management and shareholders are truly in the same boat.

But there's a lot of suckers out there who can't keep their eye on the ball i.e. shareholders returns. Everything else is noise.
VituVingiSana
#1212 Posted : Wednesday, June 23, 2021 4:34:18 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,038
Location: Nairobi
mv_ufanisi wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
mv_ufanisi wrote:
This is one of those kind of investments where the people running the show will win regardless of whatever happens.
It's a game where at the flip of a coin,
Heads I win, Tails you Lose.
It's actually quite similar to how the guys at Centum were earning huge bonuses while shareholders have lost heavily. The management faces no downside when shit hits the fan but claims bonuses based on unrealized real estate "appreciation". When the real estate takes a hit of course they do not pay back the bonuses and the carry that they earned in the hey days. Lack of skin in the game by the management should be a huge warning signal to any serious investor.

Not defending the huge bonuses at Centum but if you read (not skim) the Annual Report, the compensation is based on "cash returns" not "unrealized gains" though I may be mistaken.

Perhaps with DJ CK's ill-health and death the results have not been released yet but Centum has until 30th June. Let's see what they present.


All I'm saying is that if the returns available to management are materially different from the ones available to shareholders, then DO NOT invest.

In Centum, shareholders have seen a steady drop in the price of their equity while during the same period, management earned huge bonuses.

The only sensible compensation mechanism to do would have been to tie bonuses to the performance of the Centum share so as to ensure that management and shareholders are always in the same boat.

It's that simple.

Even better would be to ensure that management takes a cut when the share goes into loss territory just like shareholders do.

That way, management and shareholders are truly in the same boat.

But there's a lot of suckers out there who can't keep their eye on the ball i.e. shareholders returns. Everything else is noise.
The problem with with compensation schemes/plans is determining the ideal structure. The price of the shares may not reflect value of the shares. This could go either way i.e. over-priced or under-priced.

The price could outrun intrinsic value (think Tesla) or lag (think of numerous firms including Berkshire Hathaway) the value.

Warren Buffett on executive compensation
https://www.gurufocus.co...utive-compensation-pt-2

For Cytonn, as a private firm, we do not know how the compensation of the executives works.
It seems clearer for Centum.

For ARM, PP was compensated well, but he also had most of his wealth in ARM shares. He lost all/most of the latter so in a weird way he was sort of aligned with shareholders.

Now to tackle "Shareholder Returns".

The challenge is these depend on the period chosen. Safaricom for a while (2-3 years) has an awful Total Shareholder Return. Then it exploded.
EABL has great shareholder return for a specific period (2002-2007) and then it imploded.

Ultimately, the firm has to perform well financially regardless of the share price and distribute the profits in some form be it via dividends, share buybacks or ultimately a sale of the firm eg KK.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
sparkly
#1213 Posted : Saturday, June 26, 2021 11:26:59 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
sparkly wrote:
sqft wrote:
sparkly wrote:
paulkimani wrote:
Hands down the best apology ever!!
Cytonn tried to gag kenyanwallstreet’s right to free speech. The article just linked 100 other news articles about Cytonns pyramid scheme. Brilliant work by Kenyan Wall Street. What a boss, what an apology!! Cytonn spends more time fighting bloggers than handling projects. Cytonn would have been better off without this apology. BRILLIANT.

https://t.co/CEenSNg5NH?amp=1


“In compliance with the above court order, we have since deleted the stories mentioned in the order to avoid any of our staff feeling threatened and unable to do their job.

It is worth noting that the stories that the company through the court order has asked us to pull down were based on publicly available court documents and have been reported by other media houses as well and some remain available to the public. (The article has linked the news stories from BD, Nation etc)

We will continue to advise our readers and the general public that before they make any investment decision, they should first do their own proper due diligence, even in good faith situations.“



—-

Links provided by Kenyan Wall Street to articles:


Business Daily;
https://www.businessdail...-sh122m-default-2371628

https://www.businessdail...over-sh14m-debt-3224722

https://www.businessdail...ns-in-cash-call-2374156

https://edition.pagesuit...7f07db7f&appid=3420

Daily Nation;
https://nation.africa/ke...-sh122m-default-2371796

https://nation.africa/ke...over-sh14m-debt-3224664

https://nation.africa/ke...ss-house-cracks-2463786


Standard Media;
https://www.standardmedi...n-wants-cytonn-wound-up

https://www.standardmedi...nvestors-pull-out-funds

https://www.standardmedi...-safety-of-cytonn-funds

https://www.standardmedi...it-fund-cma-tells-court

https://www.standardmedi...tor-over-payments-claim


Citizen TV
Three businessmen sue Cytonn over Ksh.46 million investment


The Star Newspaper;
https://www.the-star.co....over-sh44million-fraud/

https://www.the-star.co....investment-from-cytonn/

https://www.the-star.co....d-sh467-million-refund/

https://www.the-star.co....embroiled-in-court-war/

Others;
https://www.pd.co.ke/bus...estors-escalates-53221/





They have apologized, they have pulled down the story. There is still the matter of damages (cash payment) upon proof of damages by Cytonn.

Keep us posted and try to avoid digging yourself in the same hole. The money you receive to smear Cytonn name will not be enough to pay them damages.


will they also sue all the other media houses who have written all those articles listed above?


I predicted that people would sue. Now @PK is running around reporting how people have sued!

Sparkly wrote:
Whistle blowing on what? You went to Cytonn, you signed an investment CONTRACT with them. If they don't fulfill their end of the bargain, you sue for BREACH of contract. In legal jargon this kind of a suit is called a "personam suit" i.e. you sue a particular person for the breach. This is to say there is nothing like whistle blowing on personal contracts. The most you can do is alert fellow netizens if something dodgy is going on and let everyone carry their burden.


My next predictions:-
1. Cytonn Funds will not survive the run on assets. Pole for the investors.
2. The regulated funds, structured as Collective Investment schemes will face massive loss of capital. People will be lucky to get out 50% of what they invested.
3. The unregulated funds are worse of without ring-fencing and any security. Total write-off is likely.
4. There will be no fraud prosecutions on Cytonn directors.
5. Fund Investors will have no recourse on the real estate projects. There are priority interests on the real estate.


I said people should sue. I am vindicated...


https://www.google.com/a...ss-suit-12125211/%3famp
Life is short. Live passionately.
paulkimani
#1214 Posted : Saturday, June 26, 2021 7:18:08 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/19/2016
Posts: 204
https://twitter.com/win_...408696360933670915?s=20

Cytonn blocking investors from joining the AGM. Yet another under the table move from conmen.
VituVingiSana
#1215 Posted : Thursday, July 01, 2021 10:34:44 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,038
Location: Nairobi
I am growing fat on all popcorn I eat watching this show!

Court has suspended CMA's action against Cytonn.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
kmucheke
#1216 Posted : Friday, July 02, 2021 7:13:02 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/16/2019
Posts: 313
VituVingiSana wrote:
I am growing fat on all popcorn I eat watching this show!

Court has suspended CMA's action against Cytonn.


Na bado! The plot thickens.
MPs to quiz CMA boss over Cytonn investors’ queriesK
poundfoolish
#1217 Posted : Saturday, July 03, 2021 5:15:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
This is good and welcome...

Finally CMA which played a good lead in trying to run down Cytonn will explain a few more things. and how other fund managers have not been highlighted for making billions of losses in their private unregulated products..

I hope Paulkimani and his team had prepared for an endgame apart from just trying to buy Cytonn's Real Estate portfolio from the back channels and trying to cause a run.

All of them should face Parliament.. all should be laid bare..

kmucheke wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I am growing fat on all popcorn I eat watching this show!

Court has suspended CMA's action against Cytonn.


Na bado! The plot thickens.
MPs to quiz CMA boss over Cytonn investors’ queriesK

paulkimani
#1218 Posted : Sunday, July 04, 2021 9:28:28 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/19/2016
Posts: 204
Lol.

Cytonn has always been a scam. From day one when they stole billions from Britam.
I’ll post this again:

https://twitter.com/Moha...409195469297831942?s=20

They’re a scam, they will get away with making thousands of Kenyans homeless, more thousands bound to unemployment and no education meaning their children - aka the next generation will suffer the same fate.

Random kids here said I was praying on sympathy. Look at the link.
I was not.

Cytonn is heartless, they knew they were stealing from the public and there is nothing else to be said. The only thing they have are lawyers who will get them free - no matter how guilty they are. And they are guilty.

It’s the money of investors that are paying for Cytonn lawyers and the Cytonn four - Edwin Dande, Patricia Wanjama, Shiv Arora (CEO Superior homes so beware that’s also a scam- they May not have a “Paul kimani” to warn them)- not that anyone listened for the 6 years I warned you about Cytonn! and Elizabeth Nkuku

poundfoolish wrote:
This is good and welcome...

Finally CMA which played a good lead in trying to run down Cytonn will explain a few more things. and how other fund managers have not been highlighted for making billions of losses in their private unregulated products..

I hope Paulkimani and his team had prepared for an endgame apart from just trying to buy Cytonn's Real Estate portfolio from the back channels and trying to cause a run.

All of them should face Parliament.. all should be laid bare..

kmucheke wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I am growing fat on all popcorn I eat watching this show!

Court has suspended CMA's action against Cytonn.


Na bado! The plot thickens.
MPs to quiz CMA boss over Cytonn investors’ queriesK


sparkly
#1219 Posted : Monday, July 05, 2021 8:14:51 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
paulkimani wrote:
Lol.

Cytonn has always been a scam. From day one when they stole billions from Britam.
I’ll post this again:

https://twitter.com/Moha...409195469297831942?s=20

They’re a scam, they will get away with making thousands of Kenyans homeless, more thousands bound to unemployment and no education meaning their children - aka the next generation will suffer the same fate.

Random kids here said I was praying on sympathy. Look at the link.
I was not.

Cytonn is heartless, they knew they were stealing from the public and there is nothing else to be said. The only thing they have are lawyers who will get them free - no matter how guilty they are. And they are guilty.

It’s the money of investors that are paying for Cytonn lawyers and the Cytonn four - Edwin Dande, Patricia Wanjama, Shiv Arora (CEO Superior homes so beware that’s also a scam- they May not have a “Paul kimani” to warn them)- not that anyone listened for the 6 years I warned you about Cytonn! and Elizabeth Nkuku

poundfoolish wrote:
This is good and welcome...

Finally CMA which played a good lead in trying to run down Cytonn will explain a few more things. and how other fund managers have not been highlighted for making billions of losses in their private unregulated products..

I hope Paulkimani and his team had prepared for an endgame apart from just trying to buy Cytonn's Real Estate portfolio from the back channels and trying to cause a run.

All of them should face Parliament.. all should be laid bare..

kmucheke wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I am growing fat on all popcorn I eat watching this show!

Court has suspended CMA's action against Cytonn.


Na bado! The plot thickens.
MPs to quiz CMA boss over Cytonn investors’ queriesK




Very emotional about money matters. Usiweke hii mambo kwa roho kijana, utakufa ukiwa mdogo.
Life is short. Live passionately.
Angelica _ann
#1220 Posted : Monday, July 05, 2021 11:22:51 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/7/2012
Posts: 11,901
paulkimani wrote:
Lol.

Cytonn has always been a scam. From day one when they stole billions from Britam.
I’ll post this again:

https://twitter.com/Moha...409195469297831942?s=20

They’re a scam, they will get away with making thousands of Kenyans homeless, more thousands bound to unemployment and no education meaning their children - aka the next generation will suffer the same fate.

Random kids here said I was praying on sympathy. Look at the link.
I was not.

Cytonn is heartless, they knew they were stealing from the public and there is nothing else to be said. The only thing they have are lawyers who will get them free - no matter how guilty they are. And they are guilty.

It’s the money of investors that are paying for Cytonn lawyers and the Cytonn four - Edwin Dande, Patricia Wanjama, Shiv Arora (CEO Superior homes so beware that’s also a scam- they May not have a “Paul kimani” to warn them)- not that anyone listened for the 6 years I warned you about Cytonn! and Elizabeth Nkuku

poundfoolish wrote:
This is good and welcome...

Finally CMA which played a good lead in trying to run down Cytonn will explain a few more things. and how other fund managers have not been highlighted for making billions of losses in their private unregulated products..

I hope Paulkimani and his team had prepared for an endgame apart from just trying to buy Cytonn's Real Estate portfolio from the back channels and trying to cause a run.

All of them should face Parliament.. all should be laid bare..

kmucheke wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
I am growing fat on all popcorn I eat watching this show!

Court has suspended CMA's action against Cytonn.


Na bado! The plot thickens.
MPs to quiz CMA boss over Cytonn investors’ queriesK




PK, you warned the investors over 6 years so why are you still crying for them. Let the world teach them.

We all have passed through such right of passage.

Remember, Cytonn is still getting more investors. How do you help such people.
In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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